Originally Posted by Mr and Mrs P
Originally Posted by aeh
All the same, I am not sure that I agree that the low math fluency score is due primarily to lack of exposure to advanced math skills. Advanced math skills per se do not raise math fluency.

According to the psych, his math reasoning scores are very superior range, and his calculation scores are lower, athough still high average. He has above average ability to perform paper and pencil math computations but he score falls to average when placed under timed conditions. He explained that the lower WM/PS scores were likely due to the fact that he has not been challenged thus far, at least not much and that may well be why there is an issue when a time constraint enters in. Challenging him could improve the WM/PS and thus improve his response to timed conditions. Higher math exposure would provide that challenge.

Quote
I would say that is a reversal of causality. In my experience, it's more that lack of math fluency for basic calculations can interfere with advanced math skills.

He knows the math facts. He simply cannot produce them when a timer is involved. The answers he does produce on the timed test are nearly ALWAYS correct. The lowest passing score he has received was 99. If he does not pass the test it is due to insufficient problems completed, not incorrectly answered. When you simply ask him any random math fact he answers immediately with the correct answer. DH and I have BOTH tested this.
Ah. That is important. That does tend to support HK and others' hypothesis of anxiety/perfectionism, as obviously he does have math fact fluency. But that is also oral assessment, so it doesn't rule out the fine motor explanation detailed below.
Quote
Quote
I -would- buy that it could be due to a difference between his ability to calculate and his experience with pencil skills (based on age or interest, maybe handedness), especially as that is consistent with the lower Coding-vs-Symbol-Search score.

Do you mean something more physical in nature is the issue? If so, would that not have been observed by the psychologist during testing? And if it were a physical (or physiological) issue, would it not manifest in other situations than ONLY timed math tests?
Yes, I am suggesting the possibility of a motor speed question. The reason the Coding/Symbol Search dichotomy raises this question in my mind is because both tasks are timed. The directions wrt timing/speed are exactly the same. The primary difference between the two is the fine-motor aspect of Coding. (For SS, all you need to do is make a tick mark, while for Cd, you need to draw a small symbol.) On the WJIII/IV, the math fluency task is also distinct from, say, the reading fluency task, in its inclusion of fine-motor skills (writing numerals), rather than marking a true/false item. Are there other fine motor speed tasks among the array of assessments? E.g., reading fluency (WJ), writing fluency (WJ), visual matching (WJ), cancellation (WISC). Are there disparities among them, or are they consistent? (Well, we know there is at least one disparity, since SS is noticeably higher than Cd and MF--are there others?) If it is not motor speed, how is SS different from the other tasks (in, e.g., not provoking as much perfectionism/anxiety)? It would be interesting to know how he views these different timed tasks.

As to manifesting in other situations: he is still performing in the average range on fine motor speed (under this hypothesis)--this is a personal weakness, not a normative weakness--so the relative weakness wouldn't necessarily be noticeable in naturalistic contexts, because most settings don't ask him to perform above average in handwriting speed or fine motor manipulation speed. How's his handwriting in general? His attitude/preference toward extended writing?

And no, the psychologist would not necessarily observe it in testing, since, again, it is not a normative weakness. Unless other fine motor assessments were administered, the weakness would not necessarily be exposed. This is usually the purview of an occupational therapist. Psychs do sometimes give fine-motor-vulnerable instruments, like the Beery VMI, RCFT, and subtests of the PAL-2. Certain subtests of the DKEFS can also be revealing of fine motor issues.

Please be clear that I am not knocking the psychologist or his/her work or clinical skill. (That would be unprofessional toward a colleague.) Just pointing out that there are additional pieces of (unknown) data that could affect the diagnostic picture. I certainly don't have all the information necessary to make a clear assessment one way or the other! I am guessing that the indicators of perfectionism fit more with the psych's clinical instincts. And he/she was on the spot, so naturally one defers to his/her observations. But in the absence of more fine-motor data, that doesn't actually rule out fine-motor speed/automaticity issues. Which can cause anxiety in themselves, especially in a child whose mind moves so much more quickly.
Quote
Quote
One other thought: do you know if the digit span was the result of a low digits forward and high digits backward, or evenly average?

It was simply because after a certain point, he would not even attempt the span. He said he could not do it and would not try. We have seen this same thing. He decides it's too hard because it doesn't come easily to him. He needs to experience challenge so he understands that he CAN do it.
That sounds most like perfectionism.


...pronounced like the long vowel and first letter of the alphabet...