Last week during parent teacher conference, DS7 2nd grade teacher said she and his reading teacher (he is not formally accelerated, but does go to a 3rd grade class most of the time for reading instruction)both see that he is immature. She said he makes noises and dances around sometimes when he is supposed to be doing work. She suggested the immaturity was due to the fact that he is an only child and doesn't get to spend enough time with other kids. She suggested we involve him in more activities with other kids.

He goes to Sunday School and junior church each week, a children's Bible club meeting once a week, Saturday morning enrichment classes, and he plays spring and fall soccer. This is in addition to playing with neighborhood kids.

I did not rebut her at the time, mostly because I couldn't think of a good rebuttal. (I have never been good at thinking on my feet!) Later, on the way home, I thought that maybe what they are seeing is acting out due to boredom.

I want to follow up with the teacher because she also made a veiled reference to him maybe not being allowed in the GT pullout program next year because of his "immaturity". I know he is not being challenged by the 2nd grade curriculum and I know he really needs the be in the GT program next year.

Can any of you give me some good resources I can use to back up my case when rebutting the teacher's accusation?

Thank you in advance for your help.

Based on all of those facts, I would seek out an independent advocate. I think you might find info. about their role on the Hoagies website. You are picking up all of these cues and clues from the school and we could share / confirm similar examples of such treatment and it wastes time and energy. You deserve to be treated with respect and the families are the customers.

While an independent advocate can be a great resource for those who can afford it, often parents are their children's best advocates. There are several resources with advocacy tips in this recent post. This might be your best path toward establishing your child's "need" for advanced academics.

It seems your child had a formal eval from which a GAI score was posted earlier... often a GAI is indicative of slower processing speed and/or lower working memory, which could possibly be impacting your child. Have you checked with the person who evaluated your child to inquire whether his/her interpretation of the assessment results might reveal anything which the teacher could be painting with a broad brush as "immaturity"?

Also, have you asked your child for input as to how he sees the reading time? For example, if he is pulled out alone, does he feel uncomfortable in being isolated? Are there specific things which he can articulate which are "triggers" for the described behavior?

The best resource available is: you.

You have observed your DS in a variety of environments. Some of them (the church-related ones) offer a direct parallel with school. How is that going? What kind of behavior do you see? How do your observations compare to what your teacher reports?

Depending on that, your counter-argument might be something like this:

"We do not see the kind of behavior you describe in similar situations. The problem is specific to school. We believe this is due to lack of challenge and engagement, which leads to boredom, and acting out. The GT pull-out should be beneficial in addressing this problem."

Or:

"Yes, we see DS behave this way in certain, similar situations, generally due to boredom. We know that he's not being challenged with his current curriculum, which explains why he's experiencing boredom in your class. The GT pull-out should be beneficial in addressing this problem."

Depending on whether your state offers any guarantees to gifted children via legislation, you could also add:

"My DS has a right to an education that is appropriate for his cognitive abilities. We do not accept any perceptions of 'immaturity' as sufficient reason to deny him access to that."

I hope it helps to share personal experiences; I received unsolicited comments my whole life. First of all, you hope that everyone is allowed to have their own opinion; I never understand people who think they have to comment on you. It can come with being a very, nice person, so maybe people take advantage of that personality. Even in meetings for the gifted families, the gifted people are all very polite and listening respectfully, meanwhile, we might be listening to someone who has no first-handed experience with giftedness themselves and you are wondering why you are spending an hour listening to their information. Please do not let them mislabel your wonderful child. We might be a small percentage of the population; we might have great advantages academically, but we don't have to be made to feel as if our opinions should categorically be disregarded, because we are not the school teacher, etc. It makes me feel for the scientists, who try to help people with their various problems that might be able to be solved through science, but it seems like no one is listening.

A high intellectual profile (or intellectual advantage) does not necessarily equate to academic advantage.

I can only speak from my truth - it has been a huge advantage always and it has occurred to me that even though none of our four parents have college degrees, they had a high intelligence and it definitely helped them in their jobs to make a better living than you would expect.

Back to the original post, it is great that you are thinking it through and preparing for the next meeting. We don't post here all year long. Right now I am thinking about next steps and posting helps me discover how I really feel. We share also to save others our mistakes, as in I wish someone had warned us how to navigate. Even if a teacher or two have first-hand experience with giftedness, somehow, in their role as teacher they might not have the time / energy to make sure your child's needs are met.

Keep feeling out the town you are in. Some places might feel safer to speak about IQ. But, if you are in an area where you know it is controversial, I can attest that some really strong parent advocates (seems like the parents working on this issue from decades ago, paving the way) have been stigmatized and since now there is social media, we would be more understated. All the best. Know there are space limits, but if I could telepath what I was thinking it would be much longer. Good luck. We'll probably be back in the fall.

Do you see similar behavior in other contexts? Or is it only at school?

I would not ignore the possibility of some kind of 2E issue without investigating further. But if the problems are seen in only one context, I'd try to solve it in that particular context.

Perhaps you could suggest/ provide some activities you think are at an appropriate level, and ask them (or preferably a neutral party!) to observe whether the behaviour changes when he is better engaged?

Parents may wish to consider carefully whether to utilize the words boredom or bored when advocating for their child as these words tend to have a polarizing and adversarial effect. In this recent thread, several members discuss reasons to not use the word "bored" when advocating.

Parents may also wish to summarize the meeting in writing, including any points of agreement, and place their observations in that written summary. You may have seen this elsewhere on the forums, but there are lists of crowd-sourced ideas on preparing for a meeting. Standard tips for meeting prep include:
- Research state laws and the school or district policies and practices. This information is often found online. You may wish to print and put this in an advocacy ring binder to refer to over the years as the laws and policies/practices may change over time.
- Have any test results and other pertinent facts available to share (milestones, reading lists, other accomplishments/achievements)
- It is good to have them speak first. If asked to speak first, you may simply wish to thank everyone for attending and summarize that you are all here to share information and ideas about how to best meet your child's educational needs... and that you would like to hear from them.
- Agenda
- Know who is in the meeting, and their role(s)
- Stay calm
- Know what you are asking for
- TAKE NOTES including 5Ws (Who-What-Where-When-Why-How) of differentiation, so you can summarize in an e-mail afterward [Some families announce they plan to record the meeting and then do so, rather than taking notes.]
- Use active listening (rephrase what has been said, and put it in a question form) to clarify understanding
- Be open to receiving the school's data/observations.
- Listen to any proposals they may make, ask appropriate probing questions, such as how a proposal may work, how the proposal may help your child, the schedule/frequency of service delivery, etc
- Do not be forced to make a decision if you need time
- Summarize next steps & time frames, and/or need for a follow-up meeting
- Thank everyone for their time & interest
- After the meeting, write a summary (points of agreement, etc) and share it, possibly by e-mail

This may be a good time to begin a dated advocacy journal of whom you spoke with, and a brief summary of each contact.

Welcome to the "club." Not to be flippant, but this seems so common with gifted kids. You may want to read up on the concept of asynchrony. FWIW, these issues seem to nearly disappear for us when DS is in his accelerated classes.

Are you seeing this in other contexts?

We (DH and I) had been vascillating on whether to contact the psychologist regarding this issue. He did say that the difference between Working Memory/Processing Speed and the other scores was great enough that it would technically be considered an LD, but that we would be very unlikely to receive accomodation because of it. He suggested we work on things that don't come easily to DS like soccer or baseball to help develop that part of the brain. He said sometimes he will see improvement in that score when the brain is challenged. I reveiwed the psych report and there was no mention of maturity issues.

According to DS, the reading time is one of the bright spots of his day. He works with the highest level reading group in the class he goes to. He has NEVER had a reading group to work with, he has always been the only child in his reading level. He loves the third grade class because he reads at his level with other kids.

I have seen the same behavior, but not when he is engaged in what he is doing. One example is while sitting on the bench during a soccer game, he is known to fool around and not pay attention to what is going on in the game. We saw it to a lesser extent when we were trying to work with him on his 100 question math fact tests. He knew the facts, but could not concentrate to do all 100 problems in 10 minutes. But if it's a Wimpy Kid book or Minecraft, or more recently learning to program Scratch or Java, he can concentrate like nobody I have ever seen.

I have spoken to both his Sunday School, Junior Church and AWANA leaders, they say he is the best kid in the class.

I doubt we have a 2E situaton mainly because the reason we had him tested was because of the behaviors we saw during soccer bench time and during the math tests the psych said there was no concern for ADD or ADHD - he tested as a normal 7 year old. Which is why I am thinking it's lack of challenge (a better way of phrasing it than boredom!) However it is equally possible that I am not looking at all sides of this thing, so your input and questions are most welcome!

Thanks.

I have read some on asynchrony, and I was pretty sure that's what she/they were seeing. But a parent saying it, and being able to back up your comments with expert resources are two different things, you know what I mean?

I also spoke with someone in the enrichment program DS attends on Saturday mornings, her response was "they don't have much experience dealing with gifted kids, do they?" I think that may be the crux of the issue.

We met with the teacher and principal when he was in first grade because he was reading way ahead, but his teacher refused to recognize it, claimed he did not have the comprehension because he could not identify the -ly word in a sentence....uhhhh that's grammar, lady, not reading comprehension! Neither the teacher nor the principal were very interested in hearing our child needed anything different than regular old first grade curriculum. DS had not been tested, and we knew they wouldn't do it, so we went independent for testing. The school now has to recognize DS giftedness, but they really don't want to do much for him. By law the school had to provide him services, but they are not funded by the state. I think mostly DH and I don't want to be "those parents" but when you are dealing with giftedness, I am finding that you HAVE to be one of "those".

Oh... this strikes a nerve with me and you have my full sympathy.

My daughter was almost denied admission to the gifted math program because "she's too shy" (REALLY?? This is MATH, not public speaking). My son, meanwhile, "Needs to play a team sport. You should enroll him in a team sport." (insert profanity here to represent my reaction).

Fyi my kids have friends (thank you very much) AND are active and healthy.

One of my pet peeves is western culture's obsession with team sports for socialization.LET IT GO, neurotypicals... PLEASE.
Don't get me wrong... sports are wonderful for a variety of reasons, but team sports are just not right for everyone, yet they seem to be the "go to solution" for educators who don't understand the atypical socialization needs of gifted kids. It just bothers me that the NT educators try and throw the non-NT kids onto the same pile as everyone else and assume everything will be just ducky.

And tell me - what does their required "extroversion" have to do with success in math?? NOTHING. So I simply continued to advocate and they eventually put her in the program.

For my son, meanwhile... I just ignored the team sports thing. Grrr.

My advice to you would be to cite research relating to behavioral differences in gifted kids to further prove that your son does in fact belong in enrichment, and don't let it go! You know what's right, so fight for it.

Well, she apparently was not showing the leadership or enthusiasm necessary to really be able to fully participate and benefit the modern gifted program.

Simply being intelligent or having skill in a subject area is no longer sufficient now that we have entered a more competitive time of international economic achievement.

The schools are looking for the greatest minds, the strongest leaders...those who can truly be equipped to lead the world of tomorrow.

You know. People who can become CEO of a major multinational corporations like Coca-Cola.

Our major multinationals are having very severe problems these days. Did you know that not everyone drinks Coke products at every meal That some people still drink just plain water?

If we get the right people into the gifted programs, we can potentially solve, once and for all, these thorny problems.

I see your point, but what about asynchronous behavioral development and gifted sensitivities? She was nine at the time. We champion our kids' rights to be accepted in spite of their quirks, and yet a nine year old is not allowed to be socially awkward?

Not all gifted kids are extroverts and strong leaders. In fact, there's a statistical correlation between LOG and introversion - the higher the former, the greater the percentage of the latter. Why should my daughter's math talents have gone undeveloped because she's an introvert and not comfortable telling other people what to do?

They can make gifted "leadership" programs for the gifted leaders. This program was for MATH.

I could be wrong, but I think JonLaw was speaking tongue-in-cheek.

Quirky people are scary. Introverted people are confusing.

Also, non-extroverted gifted people who can't tell other people what to do simply aren't cut out for the modern global financial hypereconomy.

I'm pretty sure they're obsolete.

It's not clear what should be done with obsolete people, but it would be silly to put an obsolete student into a gifted program.

I'm fairly certain that Coke, as a corporate person, does want everyone to solely drink Coke products.

If you were Coke, and you were dependent on continuous market expansion and increased profitability in order to self-actualize , you would want the same thing.

Not helping Coke, or actively hurting Coke, seems like corporate personhood abuse, to tell you the truth.

What is LOG?

"Level of Giftedness"

It's a shorthand commonly used on the forum to reflect how far from normative a person's cognitive profile is.

In children, it also tends to reflect the degree to which asynchronous development is likely to be a factor in parenting and educational settings.


For whatever it is worth, I have no idea what Coke's LOG might be. I'm not sure that IQ can be measured very accurately in corporate persons.

This, combined with having two teachers who've noted issues with distracted behaviors, would lead me to want to dig just a bit deeper into understanding what the testing showed, why a GAI was calculated, and follow-up on the psychologist's comments re the "GAI technically considered an LD". While it's true that it's not always straightforward or easy to get accommodations for students with high GAI, not understanding what's causing the discrepancy in scores that led to needing to calculate a GAI is leaving open the possibility that an undiagnosed challenge will cause frustration and underachievement in school, and oftentimes undiagnosed challenges *look* like a misbehaving or distracted or lazy student to a teacher who isn't familiar with either the diagnosis or the full picture of what's going on with the child.


I would want to know more details from the teachers re when he's acting distracted - look for clues in the type of work he's being asked to do. "Reading" class isn't just about reading - is he having to answer questions about a book on a worksheet? Is he being asked to read out loud? Is he working in a small group? There are many different activities going on in even a small part of the school day like reading, any one of which might be requiring a skill that's a challenge - but the only way to really see the challenge is to observe over a period of time and look for connections.


This is an example of why observing where behavior issues occur over time, and then looking at that in parallel with understanding what the results of testing are telling you is really key - it's not uncommon for kids to be distracted while waiting to play in a game, as well as other situations. So there's no doubt you'll see situations where you know, hey, this isn't a challenge, this is just a kid being a kid. Other situations, like the math facts, are not so clear. The skills required to play Minecraft or read a Wimpy Kids book are different skills than the skills needed to name math facts. It's possible that a discrepancy in testing might correlate to a situation you see where there are repeated challenges with behavior.


Which could mean there isn't an issue, or it could mean that he's not required to use the skill sets that are a challenge in those situations.

This is just going to be a complete guess (TOTAL guess lol), but the psych report you have mentioned


There are a few red flags I see here - first, you had a need to have him tested. This isn't a typical situation - most kids don't exhibit behaviors that lead to parents feeling they need testing. Second red flag - noting that there is no concern for ADHD. ADHD is only one of *many* reasons a child may be challenged and considered to be 2e. According to most of the private professionals I've spoken with, it should also be a diagnosis that is only arrived at after other diagnoses with similar symptoms have been considered and ruled out. Having a discrepancy in subtest scores on a WISC that is large enough to calculate a GAI (given that the test is an accurate reflection of your ds' functional levels), is *not* a typical situation. You've also had two teachers note issues in the classroom. The teachers may be off-base, but it's going to be worth your while to dig deeper into the situation.
It's possible it's just boredom, but fwiw, I would at least start by reviewing the report you were given post-testing by the neuropsych.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Not to be picky, but to offer a bit of explanation because you are new to this... The IQ tests consist of many subtests. Combined score is the Full-Scale IQ (FSIQ). Significantly lower subtest scores (often processing speed and working memory) may be 1) indicative of a learning disability 2) result in calculation of another score in addition to the FSIQ: the General Ability Index (GAI) which may be higher than the FSIQ (as the FSIQ may have been impacted by the low subtest scores in processing speed and working memory).

Many families encounter a practice of providing accommodations only if the child is performing below grade-level standards. However parents may successfully advocate to receive accommodations so that their child performs at their personal best (at the level of achievement indicated by GAI, generally above the grade-level standards). You may wish to read up on Wrightslaw and the book "From Emotions to Advocacy."

Thanks for clarification. The reference to statistical correlation between LOG and introversion. I have not seen such a study. Is there a report one can point to?

Looked back at your earlier post, referenced by PPs above, I see that there is a three SD difference between the GAI in the Very Superior range, and at least one representative subtest from each of the working memory and processing speed clusters, in the Average range but below the mean. (Can't tell if the whole WMI and PSI were calculated.) That is a pretty striking difference--big enough to make me suspect more than a typical gifted GAI/CPI split. Has your DS been assessed for anything beyond IQ? In order to make an informed judgement that 2e is not a likely explanation of the low WMI & PSI, you would need assessments of other areas, such as visual-motor skills (most likely in the context of an OT eval), auditory processing, and in-depth academic achievement (not a screening instrument like the WRAT-4), to name a few.

Based on what you've shared, there is insufficient data to determine one way or the other whether another exceptionality is involved, and some anecdotal information that suggests that there may be something not fully explainable by invoking age and LOG. You may wish to consider further assessment with someone who has 2e experience.

First, I very badly phrased what I was trying to say,,,,I suppose I should have actually looked at the report when typing instead of going from memory...

DS had very high (99th percentile) scores in all areas except Working Memory and Processing Speed, which were average (61st and 73rd respectively), thus the need to calculate GAI. What the psych actually said was that the difference between WM/PS and the other metrics because it was in excess of 30 points would "technically" constitute an LD. The psych said that these scores (WM/PS) were likely lower because he hasn't been challenged yet, and that part of his brain hasn't been developed. Hence the suggestion of working on something that doesn't come easy to him.


Very good advice! I think an email to the reading teacher may be in order, at least as a start!



There was more to why we had him tested. The behavior was simply the "last straw". We knew DS was advanced in reading, but we had no backup to that claim. His 1st grade teacher was holding him back horribly and we got nowhere in getting her to budge. My idea behind testing was that it would show that he is ahead of a typical child and we could lobby for change. We just didn't expect the scores to be as high (or as divergent) as they were.



I think my lack of proper phraseology (to quote Mayor Shinn) is the explanation to this one. Mea Culpa.

Good suggestion. DS was assessed by a psych with ample 2E experience. When deciding who to perform his assessment we researched. The psych we consulted has been published sufficiently that we could get a good idea of his background, he has written multiple articles on 2E, asynchrony and emotional needs. We are very comfortable that if additional testing to investigate the WM/PS scores were needed, he would have suggested them. He did do Woodcock Johnson Math testing. It showed he has an above average ability to perform paper and pencil math computations, but the score falls to below average when placed under timed conditions. He considered the possibility of a math LD, but felt it was more likely that DS has not been exposed to advanced math skills (that's a fact) and with exposure to advanced math skills his basic math skills would improve.

If this helps regarding WMI/PSI:

Digit Span - 9
Letter-Number Sequencing - 13
Arithmetic - 12

Coding - 9
Symbol Search - 14

Oh... pffft (blush). That's funny My bad.

Good to hear that you had an experienced evaluator. Presumably that profile was slow-but-accurate? All the same, I am not sure that I agree that the low math fluency score is due primarily to lack of exposure to advanced math skills. Advanced math skills per se do not raise math fluency. I would say that is a reversal of causality. In my experience, it's more that lack of math fluency for basic calculations can interfere with advanced math skills. I -would- buy that it could be due to a difference between his ability to calculate and his experience with pencil skills (based on age or interest, maybe handedness), especially as that is consistent with the lower Coding-vs-Symbol-Search score.

One other thought: do you know if the digit span was the result of a low digits forward and high digits backward, or evenly average?

In any case, it sounds like you have a good resource nearby, in case additional concerns arise as you monitor his progress. E.g., if the fluency and fine-motor speed scores don't rise naturally.

ETA: I can see that advanced math might give a child reason to master math facts, though, when simple arithmetic isn't engaging enough.

I am wondering if the behaviors you and the teacher are seeing in the 3rd grade reading class and on the bench at soccer games be related to anxiety.

According to the psych, his math reasoning scores are very superior range, and his calculation scores are lower, athough still high average. He has above average ability to perform paper and pencil math computations but he score falls to average when placed under timed conditions. He explained that the lower WM/PS scores were likely due to the fact that he has not been challenged thus far, at least not much and that may well be why there is an issue when a time constraint enters in. Challenging him could improve the WM/PS and thus improve his response to timed conditions. Higher math exposure would provide that challenge.


He knows the math facts. He simply cannot produce them when a timer is involved. The answers he does produce on the timed test are nearly ALWAYS correct. The lowest passing score he has received was 99. If he does not pass the test it is due to insufficient problems completed, not incorrectly answered. When you simply ask him any random math fact he answers immediately with the correct answer. DH and I have BOTH tested this.


Do you mean something more physical in nature is the issue? If so, would that not have been observed by the psychologist during testing? And if it were a physical (or physiological) issue, would it not manifest in other situations than ONLY timed math tests?


It was simply because after a certain point, he would not even attempt the span. He said he could not do it and would not try. We have seen this same thing. He decides it's too hard because it doesn't come easily to him. He needs to experience challenge so he understands that he CAN do it.

He knows the math facts. He simply cannot produce them when a timer is involved.

That, coupled with the other behaviors you mentioned, leads me to wonder if anxiety might not be worth an additional look.

ETA: How does he do if YOU time him-- on the sly? That is, if he doesn't know that he's being timed, how does he do?

What changes if you then let him know that you're tracking how long it takes him?

What is different if he is running OUT of time, instead?

If it's anxiety driving things, those three situations should result in progressively worse performance.



Perfectionists are very prone to anxiety, and your last statement above is a classic 'tell' for perfectionism (the outcome is no longer certain, this feels hard-- time to quit while I'm ahead rather than risk failing).

Ah. That is important. That does tend to support HK and others' hypothesis of anxiety/perfectionism, as obviously he does have math fact fluency. But that is also oral assessment, so it doesn't rule out the fine motor explanation detailed below.
Yes, I am suggesting the possibility of a motor speed question. The reason the Coding/Symbol Search dichotomy raises this question in my mind is because both tasks are timed. The directions wrt timing/speed are exactly the same. The primary difference between the two is the fine-motor aspect of Coding. (For SS, all you need to do is make a tick mark, while for Cd, you need to draw a small symbol.) On the WJIII/IV, the math fluency task is also distinct from, say, the reading fluency task, in its inclusion of fine-motor skills (writing numerals), rather than marking a true/false item. Are there other fine motor speed tasks among the array of assessments? E.g., reading fluency (WJ), writing fluency (WJ), visual matching (WJ), cancellation (WISC). Are there disparities among them, or are they consistent? (Well, we know there is at least one disparity, since SS is noticeably higher than Cd and MF--are there others?) If it is not motor speed, how is SS different from the other tasks (in, e.g., not provoking as much perfectionism/anxiety)? It would be interesting to know how he views these different timed tasks.

As to manifesting in other situations: he is still performing in the average range on fine motor speed (under this hypothesis)--this is a personal weakness, not a normative weakness--so the relative weakness wouldn't necessarily be noticeable in naturalistic contexts, because most settings don't ask him to perform above average in handwriting speed or fine motor manipulation speed. How's his handwriting in general? His attitude/preference toward extended writing?

And no, the psychologist would not necessarily observe it in testing, since, again, it is not a normative weakness. Unless other fine motor assessments were administered, the weakness would not necessarily be exposed. This is usually the purview of an occupational therapist. Psychs do sometimes give fine-motor-vulnerable instruments, like the Beery VMI, RCFT, and subtests of the PAL-2. Certain subtests of the DKEFS can also be revealing of fine motor issues.

Please be clear that I am not knocking the psychologist or his/her work or clinical skill. (That would be unprofessional toward a colleague.) Just pointing out that there are additional pieces of (unknown) data that could affect the diagnostic picture. I certainly don't have all the information necessary to make a clear assessment one way or the other! I am guessing that the indicators of perfectionism fit more with the psych's clinical instincts. And he/she was on the spot, so naturally one defers to his/her observations. But in the absence of more fine-motor data, that doesn't actually rule out fine-motor speed/automaticity issues. Which can cause anxiety in themselves, especially in a child whose mind moves so much more quickly.
That sounds most like perfectionism.

I wouldn't worry about the soccer game behavior. As a soccer dad myself, I can say that goofing off/not paying attention on the sideline is an age-appropriate behavior.

My DD did have a teammate whose mom confirmed she had an ADHD diagnosis, and that was more noticeable when the child was on the field than when she was on the bench.

Pretty much the same. The reason I thought ADHD is that he would stare at a single problem for up to 30 seconds, and he sometimes couldn't sit still while doing practice tests. And in many cases it's a problem he has already correctly answered earlier on the same page.


We have tried each of those scenarios, and nothing changed. When we simply had him do all 100 problems in whatever time it took him, he usually took 13 - 14 minutes to complete.

Now there IS recent progress, in that he now confidently skips a problem he can't recall the answer for immediately, and comes back to it later. He is successfully completing the 100 questions in 7 minutes or so. The first time he did this was last week, and he passed his -4 on first try. While I was writing this post, he was working on his -5 for the first time. He got all 100 done in 7.5 minutes.



I can see how it may be some perfectionism causing some of his issues, but I haven't really observed anxiety. I also wonder if maybe it doesn't keep his focus because of the monotony of it. Does that make any sense at all?

[quote=aeh]Please be clear that I am not knocking the psychologist or his/her work or clinical skill. (That would be unprofessional toward a colleague.) Just pointing out that there are additional pieces of (unknown) data that could affect the diagnostic picture. I certainly don't have all the information necessary to make a clear assessment one way or the other! I am guessing that the indicators of perfectionism fit more with the psych's clinical instincts. And he/she was on the spot, so naturally one defers to his/her observations. But in the absence of more fine-motor data, that doesn't actually rule out fine-motor speed/automaticity issues. Which can cause anxiety in themselves, especially in a child whose mind moves so much more quickly.[quote]

I will admit at first I read your replies as knocking or questioning our psychologist. But as the discussion progressed I realized your probing was causing me to think it over more carefully. Anything that helps me to better understand what I am seeing, and help me learn to speak the language of giftedness and testing is welcome. It only benefits my child in the long run, and that's what this is about. I am still confident in his diagnosis, but moreso now, and not due to sheer stubbornness! (DH will tell you I have a bit of a streak of that!)

I agree. That's what it's all about. The better you understand your child (and, ultimately, he understands himself), the more effective your efforts will be, creating an optimal match between him and his environment.

I just didn't want you to overlook any alternative interpretations. I've walked into meetings with my formulation all prepared, apparently supported by my data, presented my findings, and then had a key interpretation flatly contradicted by the student, rather convincingly. I listen very attentively when that happens; it's a good learning opportunity.

One of my guiding principles is that parents are the experts on their children. The corollary to that is that children become the experts on themselves, as they mature.