What I find ironic about that, though, is that this may be mostly a matter of where such programs have typically continued to thrive, Bostonian.

My own locale is anomolous there-- the county has probably 10-20% of the state's 4-H leadership positions at any one time, but is one of the bluest places on the west coast (and I think it's obvious that such a statement is really saying something, no?). It also has a very high per capita participation rate in 4-H, and a land-grant institution with both a vet and pharmacy school. Faculty brats abound in our 4-H program here, let's just say. wink

So these are kids being raised in an extraordinarily left-leaning environment.

SCOUTING, I could see included there, as there is a definite ideological bias implied (scouting is not very big here, as one might imagine). FFA I'd also agree is "career-oriented" in the way that seems to be implied. 4-H, though? Not-so-much. It's a little Norman Rockwell, sure... but the national message about the mission? "Youth development." Period-- not about anything else other than developing kids into conscientious, responsible, and resilient young adults with some ability to act in leadership roles.

It's frankly crazy to me (and I've seen 4-H programs up close and personal for quite some time now) that elite colleges would deliberately shun such students. Kids who keep with the program through their high school years tend to have a truly phenomenal work ethic, which is something sadly lacking in many college-bound students.

I'm guessing that 4-H is included primarily because it is seen as a proxy for kids that haven't had any high dollar opportunities. Which kind of proves my point all over again re: high SES.

Or it's possible that relatively few of those students apply to Ivies in the first place, being rather more pragmatic about higher education. Also possible that the demands of 4-H (which are admittedly high in some project areas like equestrian events or community service clubs) preclude some of those flashier activities, leading to a relative lack of things like crew or golf.

Or-- 4-H is available in places and to kids that don't have those other opportunities. We'd have to drive 78 mi one way to access decent fencing instruction, for example.



Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.