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Connecting the dots: It seems that a reliance on external factors, such as AI, would thwart the development of self-sufficiency or internal locus of control.
Brief quote from article: "It is a common misconception that everything is super easy for gifted children. But everyone needs appropriate stimulation and understanding throughout their lives, and highly able learners can sadly have their unique talents dimmed by the pressure to fit into environments that simply haven't been properly designed for them."
Fortunately, the child's mother is aware that gifted children, like everyone, have a need for appropriate stimulation and understanding throughout their lives.
indigo has already posted useful contextual information about cognitive assessment.
I will add that understanding the concept of regression to the mean can be helpful. By this, I don't mean that some of the high scores are somehow false, but simply that it is extraordinarily rare for the same rare event to occur multiple times. Very high scores are rare events, affected by factors in addition to true intelligence (whatever that is). Multiple factors must align in order for low frequency scores to occur. Many of these factors become more predictable as children mature, and as their learning experiences become more uniform (e.g., through schooling).
Regression to the mean is also part of understanding how test performance varies on different tests (in addition to the actual differences in the test structures). When comparing tests (both cognitive to cognitive and cognitive to academic achievement), tests typically have correlation coefficients, which are one way of expressing how similar the results of the two tests (or readministration of the same test, in the case of reliability coefficiencts) are likely to be. An example: a high correlation between two gold-standard instruments (such as the DAS-II and WISC-V) might be in the neighborhood of 0.8. As a back-of-the-envelope approximation, this would suggest that a 124 on the first test could quite reasonably show up as a 119 on the second test--which is almost exactly what you see on the two verbal measures, which are the most similar across the two comprehensive measures (which isn't actually saying much, as both tasks on the DAS-II are different from both tasks on the WISC-V).
Leading to the more important consideration, which is that the areas labeled with similar constructs are actually sampled from very different tasks, in most cases: The DAS-II verbal tasks have visual supports or manipulatives, and include a picture vocabulary task and a task of following oral directions (which is extremely sensitive to fluctuating attention). The WISC-V verbal tasks are both purely verbal (for the most part).
The DAS-II Nonverbal Reasoning has one task that is much like one in WISC-V Fluid Reasoning, but the other tasks are quite different from each other, with the DAS-II task more of a visual analogies task, and the WISC-V more of a quantitative reasoning task.
The DAS-II Spatial tasks do share a similar task-type with the WISC-V Visual Spatial, but then there is also a relatively complex fine-motor/pencil skill task, versus and motor-reduced spatial thinking task on the WISC-V. So the DAS-II has a fine-motor involved task and an even more fine-motor complex task, and the WISC-V has a fine-motor involved and a motor-free task. You can see how someone fine motor speed is assessed a bit lower than there highest area of strength might be at a bit of a disadvantage on the DAS-II. (Note the WISC-V PSI is actually about the same as the DAS-II SC.)
And then, of course, the WISC-V has the WMI and PSI, which have no analogs when computing the DAS-II GCA.
Plus, the NNAT-3 is essentially like one DAS-II Nonverbal Reasoning or one WISC-V Fluid Reasoning subtest. And splits the difference between those two not-entirely-the-same index scores.
And then to throw in an entirely different twist...if your DC is in fact dyslexic (which your neuropsych says she is), then you may see even more fluctuation over the years as her reading vocabulary alternately lags or catches up to her "true" verbal cognition. In order to minimize these types of impacts, and to maintain appropriate cognitive challenge, I would highly recommend that, in parallel to good phonetic-based Orton-Gillingham-based reading intervention such as Orton-Gillingham itself, Wilson, Barton, or one of the open-and-go home-based programs (e.g., All About Reading, Logic of English, Nessy.com), you continue to expose her to high-level vocabulary and language through any oral means available, such as conversation (obviously!), high-interest videos on topics of her choosing, and audiobooks at her listening comprehension level. If she enjoys writing, let her use whatever modality of expressive communication poses the fewest barriers to her language formulation (dictation/scribing, speech-to-text, typing, etc.) especially to do self-selected writing, so that she has maximum access to using and developing language and vocabulary at her native level.
You ask great questions. While parents with gifted kids would tend to be inclined to seek schools in which their children would have true intellectual peers, what is seen on the surface may not be the same as what lies beneath the veneer.
My first thought would be to look at the school district's website and see what you can find about "gifted." For example, the district may tout activities or acceleration for gifted students, run a group for parents of gifted students, and/or have policy related to identifying gifted students and/or meeting the needs of gifted students. Look for chess club, robotics club, and other activities which could be created in your school district.
My second thought would be that while "desirable" districts may drive up housing costs, correlation does not mean causation. Consider two neighborhoods: one community may have building/zoning requirements for larger lot sizes, homes with particular square footage requirements, and certain percentage of brick or stone. This community may have stringent municipal code enforcement for permits, lawn care and landscaping requirements, and regular property inspections. This community may therefore attract people who can afford the constant cost of upkeep at a fastidious level and lead to the turnover of homes purchased by those who cannot keep up at the mandated level. Any higher property tax generated in this neighborhood may be used by the local government (municipality and/or school district) to create favorable branding/marketing campaigns, forge bonds with local realtors (competition for housing leads to bidding wars and raises prices), manage the press and influence social media. The amount which each family contributes to fundraisers may be tracked, and favoritism shown to high-dollar-donors in the form of additional opportunities and awards/accolades for their students. A carefully contrived and controlled narrative, funded by taxpayer dollars.
An interesting exercise is to practice stating any simple occurrence in both positive/favorable and negative/disfavorable terms, by use of different tense, adjectives, perspectives, and selectively including or omitting details. Strive for opposing narratives which are both true, but emphasize different elements. This exercise may be seen as being related to lists of gifted characteristics, portrayed in both positive and negative light. One example of such a list - https://gifted-studies.com/ptp/wp-c...ren-Positive-and-Negative-Behaviors-.pdf
Congratulations to Mike Wimmer for his incredible achievement, all while being the CEO of several companies!
At best I could start a bachelor's at the same age he had finished his PhD... and I am also evidently intellectually gifted.
He clearly outclasses the "ordinary" gifted...
Hopefully, people will hire him for research even if there are some labor and legal restrictions due to his age! (even though we can see his developmental level is clearly very, very mature). No wonder why I felt that people infantilize the smart kids too much!
That said, I can provide scant information on two points:
1) IQ scores tend to stabilize around age 8.
"Research shows that IQ scores are more stable after age 7, with the scores becoming less variable as children age." Source: American Psychological Association - apa.org
"While IQ scores are subject to considerable fluctuation in the early years, by age 8 or 9, they tend to stabilize and become more predictive of future cognitive abilities." Source: The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould (1981)
"The stability of IQ scores improves markedly after the age of 7, with greater consistency in measurements over time." Source: Psychological Bulletin (1997) - The Long-Term Stability of IQ: A Review of the Literature by Robert L. Deary et al.
"Children’s IQ scores are less stable before age 7, but after this age, they tend to stabilize and offer more reliable predictions of future cognitive abilities." Source: Intelligence: A Very Short Introduction by Ian J. Deary (2001)
I'm hoping to learn from others how you interpreted and applied cognitive abilities scores when there are discrepancies between different tests. Background: My 8 yo daughter began having testing for suspected dyslexia as early as Kindergarten. That was followed by a full neuropsych eval and dyslexia diagnosis at the end of 1st grade. And now she has had gifted testing in 2nd grade. None of the scores align and I'm struggling to understand her true cognitive abilities and what I should be doing to support her. Outside of testing, my subjective observations are that she has high vocabulary and conversational abilities from a very young age. She thinks differently about problems and potential solutions. She has had high emotional intelligence from a young age and understands people and herself better than most adults.
First Grade: 7 years 0 months WISC-V Verbal Comprehension: 116 86th percentile Visual Spatial: 114 82nd percentile Fluid Reasoning: 109 73rd percentile Working Memory: 88 21st percentile Processing Speed: 100 50th percentile Full Scale IQ: 108 70th percentile
Second Grade: 7 years 11 months NNAT3 Naglieri Abilty Index (NAI) 117 86th percentile
Why are her scores so different from year to year and test to test. I do see she is absolutely drained mentally trying to learn to read with her dyslexia. I am not sure if her effort is changing, her working memory is exhausted, or the test are just looking at different aspects of her cognitive abilities. I don't personally put a ton of weight on her being labeled gifted or average intelligence outside of wanting to understand her and ensure I am meeting her needs. I appreciate any insights from the group!
It appears that AI is on track to replace jobs at an ever increasing pace. Something that parents may need to know, to help guide their children into fulfilling careers and lives of self-sufficiency.
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My kids school has 6.1% of students identified gifted.
Another school in the same state, 30 miles away, has a 44.3% of students identified gifted.
How could a school have nearly half of the students be identified gifted?
What I know about the district is that it’s highly desirable, in a higher socioeconomic area, a suburb of a big city. I expect families are mostly college educated and have high incomes. I do hear a little about kids being stressed because of feeling academic pressure.
Is it accurate? Or not? Is there any advantage to identifying more kids as gifted?
Edit: adding that I looked up a few other schools that are considered highly desirable in the suburbs of the same city. Also have super high gifted ID rates in the 30s 40s percent range. The high socioeconomic level goes hand in hand with “desirable” school system. The cost of houses is more in these districts and part of that is because the desirable schools drive up the house value.
Updating this thread to encourage others who may be interested to apply for a patent. While it is a long and sometimes difficult process, it can result in success with a patent being issued. I am now a "patentee."
I hear you. We have done a lot outside of school to support math skill and he’s set up to start accelerating next school year. He currently has gifted pull out. He’s done some math circle meetups and robotics this year. We’re not ignoring the strengths, just balancing it with other needs and interests. He shifts back and forth in his math interest. His strongest strength is visual/spatial so that helps with math, but he’s a bit more interested in how things work - mechanics, physics, chemistry, science, etc. So math will likely support his primary interests. This summer he asked me to help him work through algebra, so we have a plan for the coming months.
He has a lot to manage with a learning disability in writing and auditory processing disorders. So, getting him in college classes faster is not ideal. I’m more trying to support across all those needs so when he does get past high school he has a lot of knowledge and confidence navigating systems and knows what his needs are - both gifted & disability - and can plan for those needs and leave time for recovery. He has so many more things to manage with the contrasting skills, he needs experience, strategies and support and we’re using these years to let him navigate the school system and life with our guidance/support. People can go to college at 16 or 18 or 20 or 30 and learn throughout their lifetime… what I want is for him is to feel confident, successful and in control when he gets there. Or he might decide to do a trade like be a mechanic or electrician because he really likes 3D, hands on, physical work. Whatever he decides, I want him to be confident in navigating independently when he gets there.
For visual/spatial development, I highly recommend speedcubing, which has been very worthwhile as a pastime for DS, not only for visuospatial awareness (blindfold cubing is particularly helpful) but for finger dexterity which has served him well as a self taught musician (another example of him pursuing his interests entirely on his own terms). DS also played chess in primary school and though he did not actively compete in high school, his father, an avid chess player over the internet, shares chess puzzles with him, so he has matched strongly rated players at college.
He is currently enrolled in engineering and pivoting towards electronics, having recently been commended for the elegant layout and functionality of his FPGA and circuit chip designs, which very much draw on 3D visualisation skills.
I hear you. We have done a lot outside of school to support math skill and he’s set up to start accelerating next school year. He currently has gifted pull out. He’s done some math circle meetups and robotics this year. We’re not ignoring the strengths, just balancing it with other needs and interests. He shifts back and forth in his math interest. His strongest strength is visual/spatial so that helps with math, but he’s a bit more interested in how things work - mechanics, physics, chemistry, science, etc. So math will likely support his primary interests. This summer he asked me to help him work through algebra, so we have a plan for the coming months.
He has a lot to manage with a learning disability in writing and auditory processing disorders. So, getting him in college classes faster is not ideal. I’m more trying to support across all those needs so when he does get past high school he has a lot of knowledge and confidence navigating systems and knows what his needs are - both gifted & disability - and can plan for those needs and leave time for recovery. He has so many more things to manage with the contrasting skills, he needs experience, strategies and support and we’re using these years to let him navigate the school system and life with our guidance/support. People can go to college at 16 or 18 or 20 or 30 and learn throughout their lifetime… what I want is for him is to feel confident, successful and in control when he gets there. Or he might decide to do a trade like be a mechanic or electrician because he really likes 3D, hands on, physical work. Whatever he decides, I want him to be confident in navigating independently when he gets there.
[quote=FrameistElite][quote=millersb02] Just illustrates that there are different ways to raise gifted kids.
Yes! This is what I was trying to say. There’s lots of ways to do it. Acceleration is a viable option. It’s backed up by research. But I chose more depth and breadth b/c of my kid’s particular skill contrasts and school access. I also think a kid can accelerate and be parented as a whole person, those aren’t mutually exclusive.
(Edited)….
He also has the strengths to accelerate in math, reading or science, but we’re kinda putting one foot in front of the other, making sure he has appropriate support for disability, supporting strengths outside of school and waiting for built in acceleration opportunities within the school system).
I directed a previous post to you because my son, like yours to date, stayed with his age peers, increasing both the opportunities and imperative for them to pursue their own interests. If your DC is keen now to pursue maths interests, waiting for built in opportunities may not be the best strategy, unless he is happy and well occupied pursuing other interests, so I’ve been searching for resources in the US similar to those that my DS found useful over here.
[quote=FrameistElite][quote=millersb02] Just illustrates that there are different ways to raise gifted kids.
Yes! This is what I was trying to say. There’s lots of ways to do it. Acceleration is a viable option. It’s backed up by research. But I chose more depth and breadth b/c of my kid’s particular skill contrasts and school access. I also think a kid can accelerate and be parented as a whole person, those aren’t mutually exclusive.
Approaching my kid in an wholistic way is important to me because I think it protects mental health in the long term. Giftedness/2e is a lot to manage from a mental health standpoint. I’m always thinking about how to prioritize movement, downtime, sunlight, sleep, in real life experiences, nutrition, opportunities to play and spend time with friends, etc. Basically I’m attempting to teach my kids to prioritize the maintenance of their mental/physical resources.
Framist Elite caught that my kid was likely 2e. He is, but with more obscure differences than adhd. He’s spent a lot of the last year learning about his disabilities, learning strategies and how to use/manage assistive tech. He learns about disability like a gifted person. So, he understands his rights and accommodations and has that “heightened sense of fairness/justice” that comes with giftedness and he puts it to use to advocate for himself. Maybe he didn’t speed ahead in an academic subject this year, but he’s making big strides in self advocacy and getting support for disability in the school system. He is laying a good foundation for his own needs that should serve him well as he gets further into school/life. (He also has the strengths to accelerate in math, reading or science, but we’re kinda putting one foot in front of the other, making sure he has appropriate support for disability, supporting strengths outside of school and waiting for built in acceleration opportunities within the school system).
To the original poster: Look at your kid, look what is available, assess and make an informed decision! There are no wrong answers. As a parent you’re in the best position to look out for their best interest & make decisions based on what you currently know about your kid.
The Internet provides a huge range of maths content, as Eagle Mum explains. However, it is often significantly more difficult to self-study from the Internet than it is to learn with a competent teacher. For instance, not getting distracted by games, understanding the content/problem solving, etc.
If the stuff of logistics is too difficult, I would recommend graduating HS early and starting college early, or perhaps skipping a grade later. Taking some college classes in HS can be done concurrently - perhaps even AP/IB may allow skipping credits. As someone who used to quite like math but probably had ADHD that I compensated for to a decent extent at that age (getting away with little study/organisation, telling myself to study for a few minutes to ease myself into more studying) to the point few (Except my classmates) suspected ADHD... the self-care skills are good. However exploring interests should be limited to some extent... otherwise the kid may focus too much on interests.
But glad to hear you focus on the whole person! I follow that... just with some acceleration first (Grade skip) then work on the stuff, to save time.
Just illustrates that there are different ways to raise gifted kids.
In Yr 8, the maths HoD who was my son’s teacher told me that he had surpassed her and the rest of her faculty. From Yr 2 on, all his primary school teachers have made similar comments (often on record in his school reports), so we’ve deliberately encouraged him to be an independent learner. My daughters preferred to be guided, so as a numberphile myself, I often assumed that role.
My husband encouraged DS to play games (they often played together) and they discussed game theory and optimisation strategies with everything and by his teens, DS was bored of games and much preferred to seek better understanding of the ‘real world’.
I would mentally separate all his skills and take an inventory. Reading writing spelling math social skills speech general self confidence, self care, organization, independence… anything you can think is important for school. Are all of those skills one year or more advanced?
My kid is super advanced in certain subjects but also has lagging skills that need time to develop. So I never have asked for grade skip and school has not suggested it. I’ve asked for single subject advancement in elementary but they said one grade level bump doesn’t even do him any service because he’s several years advanced and there’s no prebuilt path to do that. (For example, you can’t take 6th grade math in 4th grade b/c 6th grade math is taught in another building. Also a super advanced 4th grade reader doesn't necessarily want to read what’s socially/emotionally appropriate for high schoolers.)
He will get math acceleration in middle school, but there’s a track to do that that’s prebuilt. with that, he’ll end up in college math classes mid high school. Skills wise that seems fine, but there’s a lot to manage logistically - different expectations, different location or online, managing 2 school systems simultaneously, exam timing, etc. That’s a lot to ask of a 16 yo that may or not be able to drive yet.
I would think about what’s available, and where that path ends. Taking college classes in high school? Graduating HS early? Starting college early? Finishing college early?
In my kid’s case we have opted to keep him with same age peers, use some gifted and acceleration options when available. Expand his learning outside of school. Going for breadth and depth rather than acceleration. He does get bored sometimes. But he also has some luxury with his free time to explore interests. We don’t have a very achievement or competitive mindset as a family, we lean more into exploring interests. And having a whole life. for example my kid has spent a lot of time baking. It’s not academic. It’s not achievement oriented. He just likes baking a cake to share with friends and family. He’ll probably use that to be a good home cook down the line. That’s as much of a win as advanced math if you’re asking me.
I would not only take an inventory but place it in the context of their likely advanced developmental level. There is a reason why ADHD assessments take into account IQ - significantly higher IQ leads to higher compensation of symptoms, or milder (or differently-presenting symptoms). Even if not all skills are 1 or more years advanced, one can still grade skip as long as they are not too bad, and academically 1+ year ahead. Though note such skill differences in organisation, self-care, as the developmental gap can indicate ADHD (though rule out other physical/mental disorders first). As my psychiatrist had keenly noted, even good attention (relative to age norms) is a deficit relative to a 98-99th% + IQ and thus is developmentally inappropriate compared to developmental level. I would also note any compensation strategies the kid has used to fix the weak areas (Pomodoro method, app blockers, etc.).
You can accelerate social development and compensate for hyperactivity/impulsivity and inattentiveness to a decent extent in various cases. This is why many ADHD teens are missed. If there are any big gaps, perhaps see a doctor or psychiatrist.
The Internet provides a huge range of maths content, as Eagle Mum explains. However, it is often significantly more difficult to self-study from the Internet than it is to learn with a competent teacher. For instance, not getting distracted by games, understanding the content/problem solving, etc.
If the stuff of logistics is too difficult, I would recommend graduating HS early and starting college early, or perhaps skipping a grade later. Taking some college classes in HS can be done concurrently - perhaps even AP/IB may allow skipping credits. As someone who used to quite like math but probably had ADHD that I compensated for to a decent extent at that age (getting away with little study/organisation, telling myself to study for a few minutes to ease myself into more studying) to the point few (Except my classmates) suspected ADHD... the self-care skills are good. However exploring interests should be limited to some extent... otherwise the kid may focus too much on interests.
But glad to hear you focus on the whole person! I follow that... just with some acceleration first (Grade skip) then work on the stuff, to save time.
