I think that all of us here are discriminating enough not to throw the baby out with the bath water on everything that Dweck and others say. Obviously, kids need to be encouraged the push their boundaries and take risks. Of course, effort SHOULD be encouraged via praise.
Perfectionism is a risk for our kids and I am open to all and any suggestions for managing it.
But basically there are upper limits to potential as JonLaw so succinctly stated.
Agreed 100%... in fact, the baby-bathwater analogy occurred to me more than once during this discussion. Sure, Ms. Dweck may be saying some ill-considered things in support of her views, but it's also worth noting that this is becoming something of an industry for her. Regardless, I think we can discount some of her weirder statements and still accept that her core message is something of relevance and value.
And yes, there is definitely an upper limit, but the problem is, we don't really have an effective way to measure that. Like the AFQT, IQ is an imperfect measure at best, and the continuum is so large, that except for obvious, extreme cases, the concept of hard limits isn't really one with a lot of practical application.
can.
The problem, as has been noted up-thread, is that college campuses (and honors classes, and AP offerings, and, and and) are being filled up with a lot of students who have been, um--
conditioned--
by people who have made it their mission (with considerable zeal, in fact) to convince those students that YES! THEY! CAN!
When, in point of fact, a fair number of them really
cannot.On the other hand, they DO have numbers on their side, and also, much more importantly, MONEY to spend on the endeavor (fruitless though it might ultimately be).
Do colleges turn them away? Why, NO. No, they do not. What they
do entertain is the notion of "making a place at the table" for
everyone. Because everyone "can" do it, see...
This is, paradoxically, WEAKENING the expectations in all academic settings-- which in turn makes it even less likely that kids like those of forum members will escape the forces that drive perfectionism to start with (success which it far too easy, nobody ever telling them that some things are just HARD, etc).
I don't know. I think that this toxic madness is harder to see until you've had a child thoroughly "processed" through the system as it is now. Common Core's woefully implemented roll-out has only made things worse. Because NO, we
can not actually make children at the 20th percentile all perform at the 70th percentile, no matter how much we might WISH that it were so... and throwing more and more resources at this, burying our entire educational system in more and more standards, becoming ever narrower in what is considered "normative"-- none of that does a gosh darned thing about the fact that some people aren't that capable. They just
aren't.NOT all people are "gifted." Not in the g-loaded sense of that word. All people are
worthwhile as human beings. All people have uniqueness and have value. Yes.
Sometimes, your best isn't good enough-- even if really, really IS your best.I think that Val and I are both saying that it is just plain CRUEL to take on a blame mindset about that and torture people whose best isn't good enough with "but--but-- if you just TRIED harder, and BELIEVED in yourself a bit more, see..."
Well, it doesn't work with disabilities, does it? You can't wish those into the cornfield, and some activities are simply g-loaded and not everyone CAN do them.
