Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Social Norms

I don't think we got off topic. I think too often giftedness is the excuse not to play by social norms.

And I think that real giftedness is the ability to communicate with college professors and fit in with the beer crowd. Because the beer crowd can have some interesting things to say. They do talk about other things beside football. And helping a child fit into any situation can be a seriously needed talent in the job. Doesn't have to be, but generally helps long term success.

And you are a much better engineer if you get down to the assembly floor and talk the talk and walk the walk with those people doing the job.

If you can create a job that suits you, great. Then people wouldn't posting about it.

Ren

Not really. I've got 100 IT people. Some are traditional "geeks" and some are not. Some are polished socially and some are true Aspies and some are just curmudgeons.


To get things done in the Real World, you have to leverage yourself with other people. The flip side, is that everyone has interesting things to say and a different perspective. Most people can only teach or be reached via talking to them and most tacit knowledge can only be gained by talking to someone.

Being able to ask questions, draw people out, gain their trust, then get them to help you and themselves is the magic moment.

A giftie with broad gifts has a unique position in the Real World. Being able to deal with the technical side and the people side and work with all types - and bring imagination to the process - suits them more than anyone else. Oppenheimer is an example of this.

The funny thing is, I can sit down with the two Aspies that work for me and logically walk them through my argument for a given task and we work things out. The curmudgeons fight me every step of the way - they are not emotionally mature.

I'll have to remember that after half the planet is a cinder following the next World War.

Ha! you've made me laugh twice today -- the grunty comment, and the TV lawyer.

Hmm...I don't really agree. Gifted people (especially HG+ people) think differently from almost everyone else, which makes it harder to fit it in and harder to recognize social cues. Depending on personal traits, it's also harder to accept the way that things are.

For example, giftedness is often associated with a passion for wanting to do something in the best way possible, and/or a strong sense that things should be fair (one phrase that really irks me is "No one ever said life was fair," as if that smug expression excuses odious behavior). I don't know about anyone else here, but it's very hard for me when I see that something at work can be improved, see how to improve it, make a suggestion...and get in trouble because the boss had a personal connection to the thing I want to improve and my suggestions made him feel bad for one reason or another.

Wren is right that listening to the people on the assembly floor or otherwise in the trenches is critical, but when the managers get angry with you for doing that, you get nowhere. Just ask the engineers and technicians at NASA how well they did when they were trying to make a point about cold O rings or failing heat shields.

So, passions can be at odds with sociology in an organization. I understand that lots of non-gifted people are passionate and have these problems too, so don't think I'm leaving them out. But gifties are a special subgroup in that group.

Many people with what are called "good social skills" will avoid rocking the boat in order to keep the peace. WHen your passions are at odds with keeping the peace, you can get into trouble. For example, when many gifties see a problem, the natural response is to recognize that it exists, define it, and find a way to fix it. As I noted above, sometimes the higher-ups don't like that (for all kinds of reasons). There are also bosses who don't like to see their reports being able to do something better than they can (it's threatening).

For a great discussion of these ideas, see the last section of The Trouble with Physics by Lee Smolin or a paper entitled [i]Why are modern scientists so dull?[/i] You can read the abstract at that link; if you want a copy of the whole paper, PM me and I'll send a PDF.

University faculty and admissions are increasingly being dominated by people with good social skills who crank through and get lots of publications and grants. They do this by avoiding risks. These people have been called "craftsmen" or "master craftsmen." They are critically important to scientific progress, but they aren't the only ones who are important. Seers, or people who prefer to work on foundational questions, do risky research that may not pay off with a publication for five years or more. In today's environment, these people can't get a job and can't get funding. Yet they are as important as the craftsmen, because they make the breathtaking discoveries that the craftsmen then refine and perfect. Craftsmen don't make these kinds of discoveries. Seers can be seen as unproductive and slow, plus the independence of thought that allows them to challenge dogma also makes it hard for them to not rock the boat. Universities today are relatively intolerant of these kinds of people and this is...well, not a good thing.

This might have more to do with social environment, moreso than an inherent inability to recognize social cues.

If a child's social group is pretty much in the same range of intelligence, social cues should be relatively easy to pick up. However, put the HG in with a bunch of kids with an IQ of 85 and you are going to end up with problems.

Yeah, that's true. The same thing can happen in the workplace, though, especially if one person has a lot of traits, including a very high IQ, that make him think very differently from everyone else.

I am with the camp that does not think difficulty with social norms is a giftedness issue, although I do think there is a significant portion of the gifted community who either doesn't care about or is unaware of how to follow social norms.

Giftedness and social skills can be linked, however. My DD is a total rule-follower and her first focus in school (before academics) is to fit in and make new friends. I was not like that; I find DD is much more aware of the people around her than I was as a student.

And so DD chooses to apply her giftedness to social situations as well as academic and intellectual pursuits. Parents of her peers describe her as a diplomat. She seems more aware than other kids her age of the "politics" involved on the playground and how saying a certain thing in a certain way might get one child in trouble (and then rephrasing), etc.

She uses her social awareness effectively in battles with her parents, also. I often find myself envying her tact, interpersonal ease, and negotiation skills.

DH and I were both in gifted programs as kids and neither of us are nonconformists, so I'm sure that behavior has been modeled to DD. But she definitely gets her "other"-focus from DH; I spent more time in my own little world, I think. Moving around a lot forced me to snap out of it and learn to adapt, however.

That said, I don't know that there are a lot of people who LOVE office politics, etc. But as you note, there really is no escaping it. Even a stay-at-home mom ends up navigating the politics of parent/teacher organizations, communication with coaches, volunteering in the classroom, etc.

But perhaps the blessing is that gifted kids are capable of quickly assessing a situation and breaking it down, so many of them may be especially competent at figuring out the rules of social situations and following them -- if they choose to set their minds to it.

This is a very good point.

But, in many cases, the problem is not technical although most people focus on it. The real problem is how the organization makes decisions and processes information.

I cannot agree more. Its almost impossible to talk to most Computer Science Profs or anyone who analyzes data as part of their research. The tools and scale of computing I work with every day is FAR beyond their wildest dreams. I've offered them time on our systems and access to modern database systems and analytics and they run the other way. No one works with flat files anymore IRRL yet that is what many at the U do. LOL.