Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Don't Blame the Parents

Every night, you struggle to get your child to sleep at a reasonable hour. Other parents have their children in bed asleep, maybe taking the time to relax, read a book, but you are spending a couple of hours with this nightly challenge. You mention this struggle to someone knowing what they are likely to say. I did this or that and my child goes to bed with no problems getting their child to bed at the time society feels is a good time.

Often this comes across as an indication the parent is doing something wrong. Do these people ever think that maybe the reason this or that worked for them is their children are naturally prone to sleep at this time. Did they ever try and get their children to sleep hours earlier than this normal time or keep them awake hours after this time. Those simplistic ideas they keep throwing out, might not work as well as they seem to think.

Just one of these atypical issues can add an hour or more to the amount of work a parent has to do in a given day. It becomes even worse if there is more than one of these issues to deal with. As a parent, you may have little time for other aspects of life, making up for the time loss by sleeping less than you need or spending more money to save time in some other way. Frustrated and exhausted, the last thing you want to hear is someone making you feel like you are not doing something right. Even if there is some way simple way to solve the problem, it may not be obvious. Professionals are often unaware of conditions if they are rare enough not to exist in more than one in ten people.

Sure some parents do absolutely little in the way to try and deal with these issues. But those of us who put lots of work into these issues often have little in the way of success. Advice is welcome, but if we say we have seriously tried it and it did not work, then the advice may just not work in this particular case.

Just as there is a nature side to our physical appearance and abilities, there is a nature side to our brain. No one blames the parents when a child is shorter than average or unable to walk and in a wheelchair. Society does not consider being shorter than average as being a disorder, consider the person to have a bad attitude or consider this one aspect of the person as an indication they are of less value overall. Often the parents and the children are putting in huge amounts of effort to try and fit better within society's mould.

I figured I would start a thread about these kinds of issues society often blames the parents for.

What a great idea.

I know that the sleep issues have been a biggie for us throughout DD's entire life thus far.

People seriously thought we had to be lying when we talked about how little DD slept as an infant. (8-10 hours a day as a newborn, less as she got older)

Of course, some of that first year probably was related to medical problems that we didn't know how to manage (again, just far enough from "normal" stuff that our regular practitioners just shrugged and gave us, as you noted, simplistic advice and offered pharmacology "to see if it helps"); still, even once we figured all of that out, we still had a child that never seemed to sleep.

She needs to read and interact with the world, discuss her thoughts, and take it all in much more than she needs sleep. That seems to be the way she is, and not an indication of pathology of some sort.

We soon learned to be a little cagey (even with physicians and teachers) about just how little she sleeps. We worry about her when she sleeps more than ten hours a couple of nights in a row, as it almost always indicates that she is seriously ill.

Insomnia is "normal" for her. Like most gifties, she tends to really tear into a passionate interest, and it gets hard for her to 'turn off' enough to sleep well when she's in that mode. Excitement seems to take away a lot of her ability to remain asleep or to go to sleep in the first place. This is how we learned that our 5yo was reading a little better than we knew-- she went on nighttime literary foraging runs and came up with Harry Potter, which she polished off in just a few nights. It was a little over two weeks to Christmas at the time. She was too excited to sleep.

Her normal sleep cycle seems to fluctuate over the course of a couple of weeks at a time, and varies depending on what else she is interested in at the moment, too. At 11, she's pretty functional on a sleep budget that looks like 5, 8, 6, 7, 6, 5, 8... hours of sleep on successive nights. She has to go on less than four hours of sleep for a few days before she becomes "sleep deprived." We definitely don't think it is a problem if she wants to stay up until ten or eleven at night.

We just don't say anything about it to other parents, because most of her peers are still going to bed well before nine.


As you note, Jamie, we've been accused of not providing enough structure, told by our pediatrician to "establish a bedtime routine" (we had), and to let her "cry it out" if necessary (was he KIDDING me???? Clearly he had no idea how long a determined and alert infant like ours was capable of wailing-- hours. We knew.)...

none of it ever made a bit of difference. If we DID succeed in getting DD to sleep at a normal hour, it only meant that one of us needed to be awake to keep her company at two in the morning. Where was the sense in that?

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The other one that I find mind-boggling is the notion that children's print materials should be "restricted" so that they can't move too far ahead of age-mates.

This is just so ludicrous on so many different levels that I have trouble knowing where to begin. I do know that we've heard this from a number of teachers, however, some of them family members.

I'm still not sure what this advice would have looked like if we'd tried to put it into practice. Perhaps we should have taken everything in our home out of packaging with labels? Stopped getting the newspaper and magaazines, certainly... Stripped the house of books other than those at DD's supposed age level.
I find myself wondering; wouldn't this require that parents of GT kiddoes turn their homes into something rather like a literary version of a sensory-deprivation chamber? What about leaving the house?



I suppose the fact that the entire thing leaves me somewhat tongue-tied is some indication that most children are NOT just picking up whatever they find and hauling it away to a personal reading nook. I don't know, because mine was an insatiable, ravening litature-gobbling monster from the time she learned to read. The only way to keep her from getting into the books on OUR bookshelves was to keep her well-fed with books that she found entertaining and engaging enough to keep busy with.

I'm just not sure there was any way to STOP it without turning to measures that seem borderline abusive/neglectful. So yes, the snide remarks about hot-housing sort of irk me. I have my doubts about whether supplying most four year olds with a thousand library books over the course of 18 months will really elevate their literacy level to high school or beyond. I certainly didn't cause it to happen.

We kept a record of the books she read. It was the only way to keep track of it, and frankly, it was (is?) a little unbelievable otherwise. We wanted some evidence that we weren't lying or exaggerating when talking to family, teachers, and the local library.

I still have that log. DD used to put finished books into a little wooden crate, and I would "log" them and then return them to a bookshelf or the library. The sheer rate was breathtaking, and I know that I didn't record everything she read, by any means.



The other thing that we've occasionally wanted to ask other parents-- but can't-- is "if excessive reading is a problem, what do you do to rein it in?"

They just laugh. Seriously. Our "problems" with our DD often don't seem like problems to other parents or professionals.

I have to hide office supplies so that my child won't use up all of the index cards, binder clips, staples, tape, and file folders in the house making architectural models or toys. What can I do?

How do I stop my child from reading so much?

I accidentally destroyed my child's tactical map of something on the den floor when I cleaned the room. How should I apologize?

My child doesn't understand that she needs to go to sleep so that we can talk as adults.


How can I set limits on my child's talking to me?


But they are all part of the landscape in my parental world.

LOL! I love this!

I've had the sleep one. It took me a while to figure out that my children were different, so for a while I bought into the idea that it was me.

Oh, HowlerKarma, I wish you lived near me. You talk like people I like talking to do.

I remember my Gr. 5 teacher, who knew a thing or two about voracious readers. When he found me dangling by my armpits from the portable's railing reading my way through every lunch and recess, he confiscated my books "because I shouldn't dog-ear the pages" (I used to mark every "interesting" passage by folding over the page.)

Not only did I learn to treat books with much more respect (and be more circumspect about what was "interesting" -- it actually became the seed for learning how to highlight/take notes effectively when I was older), but it forced me to play with <gasp> the other gifties (to whom I'd just been introduced). I still never really fit in to the class, but I did manage to clue in that I fit BETTER than I had in regular classes

What I, on recent reflection, learned from Mr. Beuler, is this: Kids want to learn robustly. It's not helpful to skimp on the discipline just 'cause they're doing something "Good." I strongly suspect that that has to be paired with "don't bore them to tears," but he was real good at THAT. (And my feeling that he'd broken the rules of engagement produced some of my best work EVER in his class -- but he was comfortable with rule-breaking, no matter who did it)

Not that I'm suggesting confiscating her books. Or at least I think I'm not.



<shivering from the familiarity>

We also have sleep issues, although he's only in the 8hr/24 range rarely. Mostly it's c.10, (incl. 1.5 hr nap) which is not ridiculously below age norms (c. 11.5-13, incl. 1 1.5 hr nap). But if we let him go down to something more like 8 hrs/24 and use a longer daylength, he sleeps like a normal kid (ie: falls asleep easily, stays asleep for a reasonable "night," and does not fall asleep or wake crying). What I want to know is a) am I destroying him by allowing him to get away with too little sleep, and b) am I destroying him by making him cry, fighting over sleep times, and waking him in midcycle to extend his total hours of sleep?

After getting him to sleep and managing his night-wakings, we don't get 8 hrs/24, which is a problem for us, and we can't find anyone to help us with it for the reasons mentioned by others...

-Mich

Maybe this isn't helpful Jamie but I'll toss it out... When we were in the worst of sleep deprivation with a poorly sleeping child, I really could barely think straight. If there was an obvious solution it would not have been obvious to me because I could barely think sequentially let alone entertain creative solutions. So, as hard as it may be, I would encourage you to remember people who care about you probably legitimately feel bad for the situation you are in and they are trying their best to help.

I figured I would start this thread as a lot of us are experiencing the issue of not being believed by both professionals and the people we know personally. Not only are we having to cope with the problems, we have to cope with this as well. My greater concern is when the professionals don't believe us.

I included details on my own experience with sleep issues below. In addition to this, my daughter is extremely shy. Often when she is around other people, her anxiety is so great, she is almost paralyzed. I had a few comments that I was spoiling my child as she would not respond to my requests during these times. She listens great when she is in her normal state of mind, but not when she is traumatized. But like many of these other things, a lot of people have trouble believing it.

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I dealt with sleep problems for three years with my now DD6. It did not help any that I also have had issues with sleep. The most she would sleep was around 7 hours and stopped taking naps during this time. The details are below. By the time I got to sleep after I knew she was sleeping and having to get up early to get ready for work left me with at most 5 hours of sleep a night.

I tried everything I could think of and was told to try. Nothing worked, but what made it worse is nobody believed it was a real problem. Having to cope with the problem, the extra time used to work on the problem, a lack of sleep, almost complete exhaustion and to top it off having nobody believe what you are telling them, does not make it any easier.

From 18 months to around 4 years, I had great difficulty getting my daughter to sleep before 1:30 AM give or take an hour. It started suddenly one night at 18 months and became less severe at 4 years just after moving. The problem started again in one room at the new place. She had this look of fear in her eyes and was staring at the window. I asked her what was wrong and she said she did not like the window. The window itself was identical to another room, except for the curtains.

A few people made comments about feeling uncomfortable in the old place. The old place had a slight pinkish tone in the carpeting and the room in the new place had pink curtains. I don't know if I buy into this having anything to do with it, but I had heard pink is a colour to watch out for.

It did appear as if fear was somehow involved in the more extreme sleep issues I was dealing with. Although the extreme nature of the problem is resolved, she still occasionally takes longer at times to fall asleep. This I think has to do with her mind running in overdrive at times. She has a creative mind and I think this may be her primary issue now.

A lot of people in my family including myself also have sleep issues. From as early as I can remember, I could not sleep before 2:30 AM. My most alert time of the day was from 11:00 PM to 2:30 AM. I have found this to be less of a problem in the last 8 years however. My one aunt has never slept before 4:00 AM and gets up before 8:00 AM everyday. At first, I thought my daughter might have this same issue, but I think her issue was related more to some kind of fear.

Over the years, I have done some research into this and discovered an interesting and not well known condition. It is known as DSPS (Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome). This condition is actually easily measured as the bodies other cycles are in sync with the abnormal sleep cycle. There are many others, but I thought I would mention this one as it is not well known and easily diagnosed. Not so easy however to find a doctor with knowledge of the condition. As my own sleep issues did not cause any significant problems, I never bothered to get diagnosed.

I think a lot of gifted people may have a sleep problem related to having a tendency to think a lot. But it never hurts to consider other issues as well. It could be a combination of more than one condition.

I was not specifically referring to my own experience with sleep problems. On another thread, I brought up the aspect of parents coping with problems. It occurred to me it might be worth mentioning how parents often have to deal with others not fully understanding the work we have put into these problems, the fact we have honestly tried the things they mentioned and the fact even the professionals are failing to believe us. How are they going to properly diagnose the issue if they don't believe the actual facts communicated about the issue.

Your comment is also helpful as this is another aspect. The exhaustion of having to deal with these problems definitely can get in the way of both recognizing the problem and working on possible solutions. I have myself delayed working on a problem till I felt I would have the energy and time to put into it.

The thread is not specifically about sleep issues. For instance, I am sure a lot of parents with AS children have been told their children are just spoiled. I know at least one person who have had both the people they know and a professional tell them this. It is not about getting the advice, it is about not being believed when we say we have seriously tried this course of action.

My daughter for instance refuses to eat most vegetables. A lot of people in my family were like this early in life. It could very well be a case we have the TAS2R38 gene, which causes a high sensitivity to the bitter taste found in vegetables. Sometimes there are real reasons behind these issues.

In some cases, you can literally whip them into shape. But at what cost and what other damages are you doing. I want my daughter to have a mind of her own. The last thing I want to have happen is for her to be whipped into shape by some partner later in life. At the same time, I make it quite clear I don't want her to do this to someone else.

But I definitely agree that in a lot of cases, they will definitely be in for the fight of their lives. My daughter's daycare referred to her as one of the most stubborn child they had ever seen. She has no problem doing something if she understands the reason behind it. I personally feel this is a good thing.

I guess that's what I mean about our current sleep approach. I've kinda won the "Battle." It's getting us by, and he's sleeping more "appropraitely" by most people's standards, but I'm not sure it's really for the best. I may just be FORCING him.

When I was reading through sleep books, "non-24 hr sleep cycle" was noted, but not even discussed. DS seems to prefer a 30 hr schecule w/10 hrs sleep. His father once did a similar schedule in university, and I know I've always had a really hard time not drifting out to 26 hrs or so. So we've got it in the family too. But then I've also heard that most people are actually more comfortable with 25 or 26 hr days. Ugh.

I think sleep is just a big problem for parents of young kids, and expecially so for this subgroup. And maybe the parents on here are less likely to try the harshest cry-it-out approaches (I _do_ know people who listened to 2 hrs+ of crying for years before "succeeding," I just would never do it)

Anyway, once you've mentioned Sleep, everyone's frustrations come pouring out! Right now we don't have a lot of other real problems. We have had, but they've mostly been more tractable (and I see our sleep issues are minor compaired to what others are posting!)

-Mich