Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment A whole lot to take in- results from psy

Alright, So after 2 days of testing and observation of DD, I met with the Developmental Psy today for over 2 hours. So let me see where to start....

Okay he broke down where DD 3.10 is developmentally on each level I guess you could say.

Academics-
Math- 2nd grade
Reading- 4th grade

Fine Motor- 7 years

Social/Emotional- 5.5- 6.5 years

Creativity- 7 years

Expressive and Receptive Language- "Higher then I can currently measure. I would say in the high school to adult range"

I am getting a full write up later this week, along with copies of the tests she was given.

Things to work on- her self help skills, she is on target for her age, but because of her emotional and cognitive levels I should be giving her more responsibility and be less quick to help.

Alright so he said he feels comfortable at this point placing her IQ between 145-160 based on his 25 years as senior psychologist for the largest school district in Alaska and his 40 year career in the field, but he will not do an individual IQ test until she is 5, but then I can bring her back in when he comes back to town and he will do the tests for DYS. He did say verbal IQ is the higher of the two, and he would place that closer to 160, where as performance IQ still falls in the very extreamly gifted but would be the lower of her 2.

He said if she continues on this self paced path, she could easily obtain a PhD by 13. Soo...... his thoughts and as he said, he is recommending these options to the school district but they dont have to follow it. And as he said, several times, take what works for us, fits her, etc of what he says and "toss out the rest."


Okay, he said she should "NOt be in preschool at all." and that he told the principal this. Now he said the options for next year for having her actually in school full time are K and 1st, and he does not want to do 1st because that would be like 2 grade skips in one, and then later he was sure we would do another one, and that has her graduating several years early. So while she would be bored in the class, she would be with social peers who while she was 4, would be 5-6. He said academically she needs to be in at least 2nd for everything as of this moment at 3.10, but then higher for reading.

Now what he suggested to me was to "Keep her off the academic ladder" Now his explination of what he means by this is...
At home do not let her do the academic things that are covered in school so she will not be so completely ahead. As he said "If she goes at her pace, she will be doing calculus by the time she is 8." So I should "focus on things that are not covered in school and go in depth in those areas." And "when she asks a question, do not give a detailed answer if it is academic ladder material, but give just a basic answer, no elaboration, and move on" Although, this never works for her as there are always more questions.

Okay, other option he suggests..
Bring her in for the non academic, extra portions of the day.
"Library time with the 2nd graders, gym with the 1st grades, and so forth."

Alright, now.... I have a lot to think about, and Dh and I to talk about, however my gut instinct is that I am not okay with confining what she learns and neither is Dh he said. He said he would rather let her continue on at whatever pace fits her. He said, "If she completes highschool level courses by 8-9, well she doesnt have to go to college then, there are other courses, more in deapth studies, mentorships, etc. And we can cross that when we get there, but I am not comfortable confining her." And I agree I think at the moment and will try for the intergration with older peers during non academic portions of the day.

I have no clue what the school will say. I have to wait to meet with them to see.

So a whole lot to take in!

I should add, that the one of the tests he used ceilinged at 7 years old and he pointed out that she ceilinged on many of the subtests.

Wow, that is a lot to chew on! Man, I would tend to agree that not only would it be unfair to keep from answering her questions in the way she want/needs/expects, I would think it would be just about impossible!
This is just confusing,(even your dr has offered contradictory statements...phd by 13, don't skip her too fast). Hopefully there are a few folks here whose experiences are close enough that they can suggest more options. Our dd4 is currently with peers 5-6 and doing well, but I would not say she approaches your dd's ability level.

I know. He says she has that ability and potential and could easily achieve it, BUT that is not what he would want for her so to speak as a child. And that DH and I have to look at our life and hers and decide what we want life to look like. He did say he did have one other student in his years who did do that. Had his PhD at 13.5. He wants a best fit for her socially, and said numerous times, "The school district can not meet her needs academically, but I am not concerned about her academics since you all can handle that at home." He said this several times throughout the meetings in several differnt ways

I agree that it is unfair and that truely it is impossible. The reason I go into such detail now, is because I have learned if I dont, more questions come, and more, and more, until she is satisfied. He was amazed at her manner of speach and she talked to him about "friends not fitting and needing to fit like clothes." and about how she is lonely and all the kids her age scribble, and dont understand her, and how she misses her friend Evan. (Who she had in PA who was in 1st grade)

As Dh says, She thrives on learning, if shes not she is miserable. That is just her. Today as soon as we got home from the appointment, DD decided to measure the house using herself as a unit, and had me come along and use popscicle sticks to mark each unit, then she figured out how big each room was. Next she wanted to watch a movie, but on the screen it said ENGLISH FRANCIS ESPANOL, and DD said "I want to watch the movie in Spanish, please click on Espanol. I want to learn Spanish and this is one way I can. I may get a little confused but I know the story of this movie." She then proceeded to watch the almost 2 hour movie completely in Spanish, figuring out words as she went.

Okay, tell me how I am supposed to stop that and slow her down!!!!!!!!!

I am so confused.

I guess to add, I am still in complete shock and freaking out over this. I mean, I knew we were looking at PG from peds and education specialists, and I knew reading was at least 3rd grade, but I did not know that she was across the board closer to a 7 year old than a not quite 4 year old. He also said, He "believes the best time for grade skips is in the elementary years and not in middle and high school."

I should add that the test he gave ceilinged at 7 years old and she hit the ceiling on many of the catagories, I can't remember which but will have the paperwork soon and can look then. He said he could not completely give age levels as she ceilinged so much.

He also said, "while if we get her engaged with older kids, socially it will fit better. It will still not be the fit she is wanting and she will need to find that with adults for conversation. But for play, she would fit better right now with 5,6,7 year olds."

So I see that he is saying no matter what the frustration she is feeling will be there, and well I dont want to frusterate her more by confining her academically. Okay, I may call and see if I can speak more to him before he leaves on friday.

He did say if I ever needed to reach him, no matter where he was in the state traveling, I could contact the principal and she would get me in contact with him. Sigh

Wow Amazed!
You have a really strong advocate in this fellow. Which is great. It looks like you are going to have to 'agree to disagree' about the 'keeping her off the academic learning' - offer to send her to his home for the weekend and see if he can pull it off! I've had the same thing told to me by well meaning folks, and sadly - it just inverts the reality of the situation. My son isn't advanced because of how I treat him, I treat him how I treat him because he's asynchronous. Truth. Reality.

Now, when we had a choice between sending him to a Math Enrichment class and a French Enrichment class, we choose French, following this well meaning advice, and it did no harm. But there is a huge difference between 'keep your eyes open for non-academic things to learn and take advantage of them when you can' to 'don't answer her questions.' She's 3 years old. Of course you will.

((OT, but I did used to use 'answering questions' as a positive reinforcer, because it was the strongest one available. "Get in the carseat and seat belts buckled and I'll tell you all about child labor laws.")) We are parents and we are just trying to survive. Your fellow sounds very experienced, but until one lives with a kid like this, there are certain ideas that sound more appealing than they are. You are the expert.

The second sanity saver I can recommend is to train yourself not to think about the future. Society will change in ways one can't imagine 10 years in the future, and as you return to the mainland, and socialize with more PG families, more options and role models will appear. You could be living in Reno 10 years from now and your DD could be enjoying life at the Davidson Academy. Can you imagine how much of a difference Jan and Bob Davidson have made in all of our lives. Now go back in time to the year before they started DITD. Could anyone have predicted that they would have created what they did.

((I'm starting to sound like Asimov's Foundation Trilogy - they made a science of predicting the future, you may want to try it as a read aloud))

I have heard of several PGs who got their first college degree (or degree's worth of classes) ages 10-16, and then turned around and headed off to a 'sleep away college' to start there 2nd undergraduate degree at age 17.

Before I knew about PG, I thought that if my son had one good year in a placement, followed by 2 bad years, that I had picked the wrong placement. Now I know that if I can get the fit right for a full entire year, that is an amazing feat - I'm happy if it's a good fit for 6 months! So now I take my good year, and start planning for a new placement when I see that 'this isn't working anymore.' That's ok, it's just different.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Alright - here's the Grinty suggestion, based on this testing.

Ask for her to be placed with her emotional maturity-mates for 1 to 3 hours a day N.O.W. - with 6 year olds, (1st grade I guess) and try out that placement for the rest of the year. You will have to be flexible and adjust as needed. And yes if you have a choice between academics and non-academics, choose most of her hours when the non-academics are happening.

For next September, you can keep the same 'base grade' that she tries out this year if it's successful or modify up or down based on observations of where her social/emotional fit is best. Add subject acceleration in reading so she can just walk down the hall and join the top reading group in whatever grade classroom has kids who reading books she could find enjoyable.

Do the length of day that works best for her. It could be anything from 2 hours to 6 hours, depending on what you observe. She can be 'registered' as a Kindy as long as they shuffle her around so that she can be doing things that are reasonable for her during the day.

Remember that you will be moving back to the mainland (was it about 3 years from now?) So she can do 3-6th grade in Alaska and then return to 1st grade at her new school if that seems like the right thing to do. Try to encourage your Psy to adopt a 'meet her needs now' approach, and perhaps pointing out the extra flexibility from the expected move will allow him to loosen up a bit.

I would try and talk to him again today, but with a 'wish list' in hand.As experienced as he is, don't expect him to have the answers for your family. Get together with DH and have a plan that reflects your insider knowledge and family values. I would have a plan, and try to get him to recommend that specific approach 'package' to the school (as outlined above or whatever you and DH think is reasonable) - with the idea that the sooner you start meeting her academic needs the more she will get out of school, after all, she has a much better chance of having her academic needs met now than she will when she is 7. The older and more emotionally mature she'll be when she has to work online independently, the better. Take advantage of what already exists.

Also - talk to you library about loaning 'The Mysterious Benedict Society' first book for fun.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Finding the right placement in school is hard. When my DD was your child's age, she was the same way. We never had her IQ tested because I said "what would it tell me, besides a number?" I knew she was crazy smart, and I went with the approach of working with the school to accomodate her needs. Though we had no formal IQ testing from a private psych, she has scored 99% on every standardized test she's ever taken. She has taken out of grade level testing and still scored just as high. She has been grade skipped and guess what.... she's still not challenged. She has a 4.3 GPA for both quarters in the skipped grade. She isn't challenged, but she is happy, and isn't bored like she was before this skip. While I can't say it solved anything, it did move us ahead to a "somewhat better fit". I can guess we'll be in need of another skip or some accomodation at some point in the future. Right now DD is happy, and that is what I base my need for a change on. She complains that it's easy, but not like she used to. Take it one step at a time with your child. Remember that you don't need to do all the moving and solve all up front. Take it step by step. I look at these moves as stepping stones along the path of where you need to follow her. One skip, see how it goes, when more is needed, advocate for more. Don't look for the solve the whole problem with one answer approach. I am certain DD would be on the same path as yours if we kept her moving at the pace she was capable, but, she is happy and gaining other things at school besides just academics (which she really isn't getting from school.) There isn't a day that goes by that I don't question when we need to do something more again. I also don't agree with the, don't teach her anything approach as your psych suggested. I never taught DD anything just to teach it, it was usually lead by her and I followed. You can't stop their desire to learn, just put on your running shoes and getting ready to run to keep pace with her Good luck!

Do you know about Kit Armstrong? He is phenomenally smart too. He is 18 now. He plays piano, though doesn't think he will pursue piano, he is just really good at it, like so many geniuses. He does physics and other types of studies wherever and plays piano around the world.

You may want to try and introduce her to some horizontal stuff, instead of focusing on vertical learning in math and reading where she just leapfrogs. Let her learn piano, get online with CTY and start Chinese. If she can focus on learning different languages, an instrument, Karate, she can put her energies there for now.

Good luck.

Ren

Really? Forgive me for being sceptical, but that ought to have been noteworthy enough that it'd be documented, for example on Wikipedia's page of child prodigies, but neither that nor Google find any trace for me. (The youngest I spotted on the Wikipedia page was Kim Ung-Yong who supposedly got a PhD in physics before 16, but even there the reference given doesn't actually support the claim, so who knows.)

Google found a highly suspicious note of a 7yo who supposedly got a PhD from the UK's Coventry University - not a leading light in research, why on earth you'd send an exceptionally promising child there for a PhD I have no idea, and I didn't find any info on what it was supposedly on!

Plenty of children are reported to have been starting a PhD in their mid-teens, but that's a whole other thing: lots of those either take most of a decade to finish or never finish at all. This is not surprising: making a research contribution is a completely different thing from doing an undergraduate degree and requires a different set of skills. There's a lot to be said for the "do an undergraduate degree, then do another one" approach, I think.

Given this I'm not sure how much I trust your psychologist!

Deep breath! Amazed, wow.

I agree with Grinity that this Psych. is going to be a great advocate, but I also think he is a bit old school (you said he had been doing this for 40 years) when it comes to grade acceleration. His fears on the social side seem to be based on the myth of radical acceleration being bad for kids (although he concedes a couple years are okay, at least in this extreme case). You might want to look at this page for the Acceleration Institute: http://accelerationinstitute.org/ and maybe buy a copy of Nation Deceived for the Psych as a thank you present

As for not answering questions, bah! I suspect his concern is that you will hothouse her and push academic subjects on her. But as long as it is child-driven, you need to go where she leads you. I think Wren's suggestions for extracurriculars are good as well (or some other area she is interested in of course).

Finally, it can be hard to remember she is just a baby really in many ways. Big brain, but still only on the planet a short time. Thus, I think with the school options you will need to watch the emotional and developmental responses (not to the academics, but to the environment). Sometimes I catch myself with my DS9 so focused on nuturing the intellectual, that I wonder if I am focused enough on nurturing the emotional. His general happiness and well-being suggest I am thankfully, and in the end, isn't that what is most important for our children (needless to say the right academic fit goes along way toward emotional happiness with our kids).