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    Joined: Nov 2010
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    Hello there, I am new to this forum.

    I will get straight to the point. I am an ex gifted child.

    I was in the top 97% percentile in verbal/linguistics and history comprehension in comparison to 12 year-olds nationwide who took the STAR standardized tests. At 10 years old I wanted to be a paleontologist and enthusiastically dragged my grand parents to UC Berkely to hear Jack Horner's theorems on endothermic and exothermic quadrupedal dinosaurs, though personally I found Robert Bakkers' theories more to my liking.
    At 13 I scored higher on the SAT than most college bound seniors.
    I also attended classes for gifted youth at UC Irvine, and junior classes in law at DC.


    However I have struggled with depression, a bipolar mother, a father who killed himself in 2008, and poverty.

    I am crippled by the thought of being the center of attention to the point where my intellectual capabilities are mitigated by my own mind in an attempt to camouflage my capabilities and not draw attention to myself in the presence of minds of lesser levels of intellectualism.

    It feels as if I can only fully reach my potential around intellectuals, not because of a superiority complex per se, but because of a crippling fear stemming from physical abuse at the hands of less intelligent people. I am clearly an eccentric, however I feel I have much to offer the world and am unable to do so.


    I also went through a Holden Caulfield-esque rebellious period stemming from my indoctrination into the public school system and the idiocy I faced at the hands of my teachers, and peers, (not to mention the bush administration!) which led to complete disillusionment and academic failure on my part. I graduated high school with a GPA of 1.9

    I am currently 23 years old, with no car, no life, no friends, and no intellectual stimulation, essentially I am withdrawn and have no idea how to survive in a world where at my place at the totem pole intellectualism is seen as so abhorrent.
    Concurrently my interests in life, talents and interest in academic subjects are so broad and vast I don't know where to start. I want to educate myself, and I know that I need to go back to school, Yet I am also broke and am afraid that the only schools that will except me will not be challenging; thus was the case with the proprietary Art school I previously received my associates from. I have discovered that my mind simply cannot function well when it isn't challenged, but I have no idea how to seek the stimulation I crave.

    I am asking for any advice you can provide on how to further my education in my circumstance.

    from,
    gifted disenfranchised adult


    Last edited by grjeremy; 11/18/10 05:09 PM.
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    Hi, sorry to hear of your difficulties.
    One of the fields where it is still possible to self educate is technology; I am lucky to have an interest in this otherwise I am not sure what i'd be doing for money. Getting entry level experience can still be a slog, but once you get in a few years, job are more challenging and you can be doing self study all the while to move up faster. Just one thought.

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    I agree that a field in which you might be able to educate yourself might be a good one. As far as college not being challenging, I won't try to tell you that every college class is going to exercise your brain - it won't. But you can pick and choose many that will. There are several web sites such as ratemyprofessor.com where you can read reviews and choose the ones that are considered difficult. It also depends on the major that you choose. Obviously, some are more difficult than others. I majored in Physics in college - and while my junior year of college was the first year I ever took a class that was difficult enough to make me cry, I was happy because it was ALWAYS a challenge. If you can find a subject that interests you and is challenging, you will do just fine in college.

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    I agree with chris1234. Technology provides a career. What you suffer from, what many gifted adults suffer from, is narcissism and entitlement. Because you are smart, you expect the world to provide a path. It doesn't. It provides a path for those who sweat. It is great if you are smart but that is 10% of the equation. I think you may have heard that.

    Yes, your home life was not great. I studied engineering in college with a woman whose mother had a serious bipolar disorder and she graduated, got a job, got a car.

    You can let the circumstances make excuses or put that mind to work. Start jogging every morning to start your day and get energized. I live in NYC and there are stories of some kid in Harlem that gets up at 5 am to his homework so he can do his afterschool job and buy dinner. And he gets into Harvard. He is really smart but he also works for what he wants.

    I am brutal because you are an adult now. If you don't stop making excuses now and take action, even if you take one step forward, find out what it takes to get a teaching certificate, you will be 33 and posting the same thing on this forum. My college roommate got her BFA and later her MFA. In between she got her teaching certificate and she teaches high school art. And has a studio there to do her own print making. She contacts art galleries for her students to show and at the same time makes connections to show her own art.

    Ren

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    Originally Posted by grjeremy
    Concurrently my interests in life, talents and interest in academic subjects are so broad and vast I don't know where to start.

    You sound like you are stuck. I know that this may sound overly simplistic. I suggest that you just pick one of those interests and get moving. Try to break down your problems into smaller steps and make of point of doing something every day -- even if it is just five minutes -- make one phone call, check out one book. If you are considering going back to school, you might want to check out the book "Colleges that Change Lives." You also may have to take some unpleasant steps to achieve your goal, i.e. a crappy job that pays the bills while you work toward your goal. Sorry, but that's part of being a grownup.

    Remember, even if you find that you have made the wrong choice down the road, you will not be trapped for the rest of your life. It is easy to think that this direction that you choose will be permanent. In all likelihood, it's not. I have had three complete careers changes in my adult life (four if you count being at home with my kids). I have been lucky, in that all of my career changes have been self-inflicted. While the changes haven't been easy, they all reflected things that I had learned about myself and how I wanted to earn a living.

    Good luck starting your journey.


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    I'm with Wren on this one. You need to go out and sweat for what you want.

    Suggestions: I took college classes that didn't challenge me and so I started researching and going in-depth on subjects that I enjoyed and challenging myself. The professors saw this and became amazing mentors for me in the fields that I wanted to study.

    Get yourself in a class that you aren't prepared for in any way and then work your butt off to do well in it. I took college calculus without taking pre-calc or trig and I ended the class with the highest grade (after a tremendous amount of work).

    Chris1234 has a good suggestion for a technology career. Things are constantly changing in the technology sector and if new languages or technologies interests you at all, there will be plenty to keep you challenged as you move forward. Even if the work itself isn't challenging, it will allow you to self-teach and will open up opportunities for you to learn and apply whole new languages or technologies.

    While I don't necessarily advocate job hopping, that helped me a lot also. I just kept moving around from company to company and soaking up as much as I could about their industry and then applying that to the next job. My salary also went up faster that way too. I find that with most jobs in the past, I was bored out of my mind by 6 months. Now I'm with a company that is in constant change itself and it's a challenge just to keep up with. And they only hire the best, so it helped to have all that knowledge from different industries under my belt.


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    Hi grjeremy,

    I had a somewhat similar, if not quite so extreme version of your childhood and a very similar approach to school. I dropped out of university as it seemed to just be an extension of the same old same old I'd been doing at school and it was just going to take too long and completely lacking in challenge (chose the wrong course in hindsight). I desperately wanted more. I went to work instead (whatever I could find) and while I was successful in my work, I hated every job I had. I found the work boring, even at a high level and because I hadn't found work in an area that was interesting to me, I found that the people I was surrounded by were inevitably people I didn't have much in common with. In hindsight, I was hoping something amazing was going to fall in my lap (I could very much relate to wren's comment about suffering from narcissism and entitlement!)

    I am now in my 30s (again, the person wren speaks of - she is evidently a wise woman!) and have only recently realised that if I am going to achieve what I want to, it is going to take work, a certain amount of boredom (frankly life is always going to have a chunk of mundane stuff) and time. While, I don't agree that it's as simple as just choosing something and knuckling down, I do think it is as simple (or as hard) as getting a job - any job - so you have some cash and start getting some experience... and then doing some work with a good counsellor to help you work through where you're at.

    As mentioned, I have really only felt confident in the path I want to follow this past year. It was certainly not for lack of trying that it took so long. I think I just needed to reach a point where I was comfortable with myself, my life outside my work and with the fact that what I want to achieve is going to take me at least 5 years and that that I just can't have it straight away. I certainly could not have reached this point without counselling (not a lot of it, but a bit to help me reframe my thinking). If you do choose that path, you will in all likelihood have to see a couple before you find one who you feel gets you - I put off going to counselling because of the few psychologists I'd seen in childhood who just really didn't get me - I thought no one would. I wish I hadn't though.

    Now, I don't know what kind of access there is to mental health services in the States and if you're broke, your budget might not stretch to it. In which case there is a great book a psychologist recommended to me called 'Change Your Thinking' by Sarah Edelman (I am by no means someone who is a big self help book advocate - I think once you have some basic tools you can save yourself a whole lot of cash, but if you're not in a position to see a counsellor I found this a good start).

    Finally, I really agree with adhoc re just getting some work - the field that I worked in the past is not related in any way to the work I want to do, but the skills I attained in my work are transferable anywhere. I took an approach much the same as adhoc, which as mentioned, isn't ideal, but can be used to your advantage while you get on with other bits of your life.

    I wish you the best of luck. I know that these may seem like simplistic ideas to what I imagine feels like an overwhelming situation. But just getting started can be a great catalyst.

    Take care.

    **I did just want to add that when I say it wasn't a lot of counselling, it was some irregular sessions over a 12 month period and did involve a lot of turmoil at the time - you might decided you need none, or one session or 5 years of sessions - I guess I just wanted to say that there is no right way to go about trying to pull yourself out of this, and there are no quick fixes. Take care.

    Last edited by Giftodd; 11/19/10 12:33 PM. Reason: added final point

    "If children have interest, then education will follow" - Arthur C Clarke
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    grjeremy,

    You will encounter many well-meaning people who will freely share with you their directions to the path they took, but never lose sight of your own path when you are pondering the stories of others. Even if no one else will listen to you carefully, you must always continue to listen to yourself very carefully, because where you will find your purpose is deep within you.

    You stated in your plea for help the following: "At 10 years old I wanted to be a paleontologist and enthusiastically dragged my grand parents to UC Berkely to hear Jack Horner's theorems on endothermic and exothermic quadrupedal dinosaurs, though personally I found Robert Bakkers' theories more to my liking."

    grjeremy, in revealing yourself in that statement, you stated very plainly what you must do. Were you listening to yourself when you wrote that? Were you listening very carefully?

    What you now need more than anything is to have a personal conversation with Robert Bakker. Why? Because, when you gave yourself a public opportunity to describe your plight, the one and only person whom you identified as someone you admired was Robert Bakker. You mentioned Bakker in reference to yourself "at 10 years old," but the person in you that you are now trying to find again thirteen years later is that 10 year old boy who knew what he wanted to do.

    Who is Robert Bakker today? And where can he be found? On April 7, 2008, the following was written:
    http://scienceblogs.com/laelaps/2008/04/paleontological_profiles_rober.php
    Dr. Robert Bakker is one of the most famous paleontologists working today, an iconoclastic figure who has played a leading role of rehabilitating our understanding of dinosaurs from the inception of the "Dinosaur Renaissance" through the present. He is currently the curator of paleontology for the Houston Museum of Natural Science and the Director of the Morrison Natural History Museum in Colorado, and has recently been involved in the study of the hadrosaur mummy "Leonardo." In 1986 he published the classic book The Dinosaur Heresies, fully bringing his revolutionized vision of dinosaurs to the public, and he has appeared in countless documentaries about prehistoric life. ...

    And then there is this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_T._Bakker

    grjeremy, if you are half as smart as you claim to be, the information I have just given you is more than enough for you to somehow get a face-to-face conversation with Robert Bakker. So do it! Believe in your own dreams. Find your mentor.

    My Recommendation: For the opportunity to be in his presence and to know him, offer to work for Robert Bakker at minimum wage as a menial laborer who will happily do the worst grunt work that needs to be done. When you make that request, look your very best, be on your best behavior, and be humble. If Bakker hires you, be happy and enthusiastic during every moment that you are in his presence, and I mean � without fail � "Yes, sir! No, sir! Thank you, sir!" behavior with a smile on your face! If Bakker refuses your offer, then offer to work for free until you have proven yourself to be worthy of a minimum wage compensation.

    Robert Bakker strikes me as a salt-of-the-earth person. He is world renowned and very accomplished, but he is not someone who is full of himself. He might say "Yes" to you grjeremy, but he might say "No," so prepare yourself for that. If Bakker says "No," then ask him for his advice. If he gives you the opportunity for a chat, pour out your heart to him � tell him everything. Why? Because Robert Bakker has this oddity about him: he is an Ecumenical Christian minister, and such people have it in them to genuinely care about others, even people like you.

    grjeremy, in past times, in was common for brilliant young people to apprentice themselves to a master to learn a trade or a profession. For example, the great architect Frank Lloyd Wright had no formal schooling to speak of, and so he entered the architecture profession as an apprentice to Louis Sullivan. Read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Lloyd_Wright

    grjeremy, you are in a very difficult situation. If you find happiness, it will be on your own path, not someone else's. In starting over, start again at that place in your mind when you last knew joy and purpose. Start by having a conversation with Robert Bakker.

    God bless you.

    Steven A. Sylwester

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    Thank you for the compliments, but wisdom was acquired at the price of decades of mistakes. I am not so sure if I was lucky or unlucky the cool jobs fell into my lap but I didn't sweat and take advantage of them. And so I had up and down cycles that rival the best roller coaster.

    Steven, I think you have nothing to lose by asking. But isn't this the type of career where you need education? Isn't the cheap labor the grad students? I think there is nothing wrong with asking but expecting a scholar to teach without the student willing to take the courses is something he should be prepared to address. If he can get into the university and then approach, it would probably leverage his opportunities immensely.

    I never go on a job interview without being prepared, I know what the company does, I know what I do, how I can do what they don't have. This Robert Bakker has a bunch of enthusiastic grad students that are really jumping all over themselves to work with him. And they have to as part of their school work and they are probably free. I think approaching Robert Bakker is fine, but applying to the school may be a first step.

    Ren

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    Ren,

    I have no idea what career grjeremy wants now at age 23. My guess is that grjeremy is confused concerning a career choice at this time. Confusion needs a starting point from which to start the unraveling process.

    What do we know? Quotes:
    1. "At 10 years old I wanted to be a paleontologist and enthusiastically dragged my grand parents to UC Berkely to hear Jack Horner's theorems on endothermic and exothermic quadrupedal dinosaurs, though personally I found Robert Bakkers' theories more to my liking."
    2. "I also attended classes for gifted youth at UC Irvine, and junior classes in law at DC."
    3. "I want to educate myself, and I know that I need to go back to school, Yet I am also broke and am afraid that the only schools that will except me will not be challenging; thus was the case with the proprietary Art school I previously received my associates from."

    We also know:
    1. "I was in the top 97% percentile in verbal/linguistics and history comprehension in comparison to 12 year-olds nationwide who took the STAR standardized tests."
    2. "At 13 I scored higher on the SAT than most college bound seniors."
    3. "I also went through a Holden Caulfield-esque rebellious period stemming from my indoctrination into the public school system and the idiocy I faced at the hands of my teachers, and peers, (not to mention the bush administration!) which led to complete disillusionment and academic failure on my part. I graduated high school with a GPA of 1.9"

    Ren, it is called Crash-and-Burn. Shall we guess on the number of tattoos and body piercings grjeremy might have, and whether he has any clothes that are not black? grjeremy would sooner get back on track by joining the military than by going straightaway to a university, but the "bush administration" mention rules that out.

    Remember, grjeremy self-described as:
    1. "I have struggled with depression, a bipolar mother, a father who killed himself in 2008, and poverty"
    2. "I am crippled by the thought of being the center of attention"
    3. "I am clearly an eccentric"
    4. "I am currently 23 years old, with no car, no life, no friends, and no intellectual stimulation, essentially I am withdrawn"
    5. "I am also broke and am afraid that the only schools that will except me will not be challenging."

    Ren, grjeremy needs some fire in his belly, and right now he is being consumed by self-loathing and self-pity, and � worst of all � by fear.

    Why should grjeremy connect with Robert Bakker? Because my bet is that Robert Bakker can connect with grjeremy. Bakker is academically brilliant, but he is also eccentric and artistic � and he is willing to stand alone against The Machine that is The Science Establishment in the world today.

    Ren, did you read the interview with Robert Bakker that I linked? The following is an excerpt:
    http://scienceblogs.com/laelaps/2008/04/paleontological_profiles_rober.php

    * [Switek] Finally, as someone who works with the "bones of contention" and the fossil record, what do you think about the current controversy surrounding evolution in the United States? How can we do a better job of communicating science to the public?

    [Bakker] We dino-scientists have a great responsibility: our subject matter attracts kids better than any other, except rocket-science. What's the greatest enemy of science education in the U.S.?

    Militant Creationism?

    No way. It's the loud, strident, elitist anti-creationists. The likes of Richard Dawkins and his colleagues.

    These shrill uber-Darwinists come across as insultingly dismissive of any and all religious traditions. If you're not an atheist, then you must be illiterate or stupid and, possibly, a danger to yourself and others.

    As many commentators have noted, in televised debates, these Darwinists seem devoid of joy or humor, except a haughty delight in looking down their noses. Dawkinsian screeds are sermons to the choir; the message pleases only those already convinced. Dawkins wins no converts from the majority of U.S. parents who still honor a Biblical tradition. Hitchcock is a far better model. He had his battles with skepticism. He did worry that the discovery of Deep Time would upset the good people of his congregation. But Hitchcock could view three thousand years of scriptural tradition and see much of value - and much concordance with Jurassic geology.

    Read his "Religion of Geology". It's a lovely contemplation of how Old Testament and New deal with the beauty in Nature. And the horror. Why is there pain and death among deer and lions? Why is there pain among humans? These questions are of little interest for the Dawkinsians, but trouble most Americans. Hitchcock found no easy answers. But he saw a Plan nevertheless. Millions of years of geological time, with waves after waves of predator and prey, punctuated by extinctions, were recorded in the sedimentary annals.

    Careful study of fossil history gave Hitchcock a sense of awe - and privilege. He was a human being during the scientific revolution, fortunate to live at a time when society was awakening to the possibilities of understanding past ecosystems. Petrified jaws and teeth did prove that Nature was always regulated by attack and defense, pain and death. But the net result was extraordinary beauty that could be made intelligible by the human mind.

    * * *

    Ren, in my opinion, grjeremy needs to see with his own eyes and hear with his own ears the very presence of someone whom he genuinely admires, and that someone needs to be a person of distinguished accomplishment like Robert Bakker.

    I am the son of a distinguished world-renowned professor. There are people who hold my father in the highest esteem, and who consider him to be a noteworthy pioneer in his field. When my father was still speaking around the world, people traveled great distances and paid significant amounts of money to hear what he had to say. Many years ago, a university graduate student told me very excitedly that he and several of his graduate student friends had just returned from a 1,000+ miles round-trip drive to San Francisco where they had gone to hear my father speak. I just shook my head and said in reply that they all could have just driven across town to my parents' house where my father would have happily talked with them for free.

    Many famous people are not out of reach, and they are not one-dimensional. My grandfather founded a college in 1905 that has since grown to be a university. My grandfather was the president of the college for 40 years, and he remained active at the college until three months before he died at age 91. He was forever the professor, and in his late 80s he could be observed mowing his lawn while properly attired in white dress shirt, suspenders, and tie. He knew seven languages, and was expert in many subjects. The book he always read again and again and again was The Holy Bible. I was a teenager during his last years, and, whenever he and I were alone together, he always lectured me on the proper care of tools, the need to have an orderly work bench, and the glory of his garden and flowerbeds soil. Yes, his pride and joy was his dirt � and it was the blackest, fluffiest dirt I have ever seen! You could pick up my grandfather's dirt in your hands without the need of a shovel; simply, it was his masterpiece. One of my most cherished memories as a child was watching my father get sternly scolded by his father because my father had put bark-o-mulch on top of the plantings areas in our yard. My grandfather went on and on about the need to compost and to properly nourish and work the soil. Why? Well, my grandfather had grown up as a Minnesota farm boy, and the old professor was still a farm boy at heart.

    Ren, of course, you are correct in everything you wrote. But my take is this: grjeremy needs to have a personal conversation with someone he admires. You and a thousand others can tell him to buck up and go to school, but that good advice will not touch him � it is not enough. However, if Robert Bakker told grjeremy to go to school in a face-to-face one-on-one conversation, I think grjeremy would then go to school with all the resolve and vigor he needs to get through to the other side � and that is the key � that is what Robert Bakker can give to grjeremy that we cannot.

    Ren, I hope grjeremy reports back to this thread if he actually has a conversation with Robert Bakker. My guess is that Bakker would steer the conversation down a very interesting road that might have little or nothing to do with dinosaurs. He might talk about God, or the extinction/rebirth cycle of planet Earth, or his own youthful wanderings, or the process of digging a field latrine at a dig site, or who knows what. I trust that Bakker is a wise man, and that he would read the situation correctly.

    I had a burning question about Robert Bakker just answered by a Google search. Read the entirety of this linked article:
    http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/Biographies/MainBiographies/B/Bakker/1.html
    Excerpt:
    "Some attribute Bakker�s blunt and outspoken manner to the fact that he has no academic appointments. Working with an assortment of ad hoc support, he has been excavating the rich Como Bluff dinosaur quarry near Medicine Bow, Wyoming, for the past 30 years."

    Yes! Yes! Yes! Robert Bakker "has no academic appointments." A whole lot of everything now makes sense.

    grjeremy, go have your conversation with Robert Bakker. Just do it!

    Steven A. Sylwester

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