Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion I need help, please... Discipline issues

This reminds me of something I thought about the other day. I used to hate it when my Mom wouldn't let me finish what I was saying (or in reality *my argument*) and I always said that I wouldn't be that way with my kid. Fast forward all these years later and I am now painfully aware that my Mom did let me 'state my case' once or twice, but when it reached the point where I was saying the same darn thing over and over again trying to get things the way *I* wanted them...it was then that she cut me off, ended the discussion, put a stop to it all. Now, as I parent my own child and he frequently tells me that "you never let me finish what I want to say", I feel my Mom's pain.

"...respecting the child, being willing to engage in discussions about rules, and never exercising power just for the hell of it..." is great in theory and in many practical applications. However, it's been my (anecdotal) experience that it can also get away from you and before you know it, the child thinks everything is debatable, arguable, and up for discussion and that just simply isn't the case (in my house, anyway). For example, I do believe in offering explanations/reasons for some things, if and when I can or feel inclined, but it's not something that I'm required to do. I think grinity hit the nail on the head with different emphasis and different challenges. JMHO.

A random Locke quote from his second treatise:
Been reading Locke all day long today almost. Thanks for the suggestion. Given today's economic worries this glimpse into the beginning of the great divide between capitalism & democracy has been timely and appropriate. I'm enjoying the drama of the Locke scholars as well. Just posting to add this quote since it seems to support the idea of a "token economy reward system" discussed in this thread. Locke also seemed to have a lot to say about the value of a man's labor, value creation, and social contribution, which fit in nicely with the prosocial behavior training.

I guess to me "teaching prosocial behavior" is too close for comfort to teaching conformity, and most dangerously to teaching unthinking conformity. Half the time "ADD" or any other string of letters we add to someone just means they're being individuals and someone at school doesn't like that. (I know that considering the population on these boards I'm probably beating a dead horse, but it's my pet peeve dead horse.... ;)) Anyway, I do understand what you're saying and absolutely believe the respect has to be both ways, but it's amazing how many adults out there think an imbalance of responsibility, size, and life experience equates to an imbalance of humanity and the right to basic respect. Like you said, kids are fellow citizens - but how often are they really treated like it in our society? Schools routinely break every part of the Bill of Rights and they're allowed to do so by the courts, which to me makes it even more important that they're treated like people at home. "We worry about what a child will become tomorrow, yet we forget that he is someone today." -Stacia Tauscher


Sorry, but why not? As a teacher, my rule #1 for myself is that if I can't explain why I'm making a rule for my class, then I have no right to make it. Same thing goes for parents. Obviously not in the case of "don't walk in front of that bus", but when there's time to give an explanation I feel the child has every right to hear it - and since a lot of gifted people have a propensity to refuse to follow rules they see as arbitrary, giving them the explanation will work in your favor. When I was a kid (age 3 or so), I fought my mom on any number of things she told me to do, but only once for each thing. When she, in the course of the argument, finally managed to (accidentally, in most cases) explain her reasoning, I was fine from then on.

If only all gifted children behaved in this manner. Or at least mine. I can promise you that in at least one family, with at least on PGlet, this was not how it went down.

I can certainly imagine that while teaching children in school, you would have such great results with being logical and respectful that you would think it's a sure-fire winning approach. If you had been my son's teacher, it might well have worked in the classroom. But I can tell you that the day would still have been draining (although delightful and wonderful as well) for my DS when he returned home, respect and logic just wouldn't be enough to get that 2 way street or respect going.

I do think that you are uncovering so excellent general guidelines.

1) With everyone, including one's children, try respect and logic first.

2) Observe the person's response, if respect and logic are flowing back in one's direction, then continue.

3) If respect and logic aren't flowing back in one's direction, try plan B.

I'm glad this thread was available. �It helped me talk my way through my current discipline needs and find the resources I need.
I don't think anyone here is a "spare the rod hate the child" religious obedience advocate. �Here's a list of behaviors from the book I just ordered:
http://www.researchpress.com/scripts/details.asp?item=4950&detail_id=116&detail_item=. It's because it's mental health. �What you're describing is religious training. �What we're discussing is life skills training. �Like the Locke articles said, "(a Locke scholar) insists that, given Locke's description of men in their natural condition, although they may in principle have a right to life, liberty, and property, they can meet the objective conditions necessary to enjoy these rights only in government."

Even though this snippet is a quote from a Locke scholar, not Locke himself it still draws on Locke's POV of moral and rational men as those who engage in "creating property" contrasted by the antisocial (immoral and irrational) behaviors which describes the behavior training we were trying to problem-solve for (using parenting books, not history books). �That quote says, "Thus within civil society, the less rational were to be tolerated, and well-treated, but were not to have full rights within a civil government aimed at protecting property."

So that's why a couple mammas already said they don't feel the need to argue on circles every time over every little thing. �Kids aren't always rational, people aren't always rational. We just aren't all the time. �Sometimes it might take more than arguing till you're blue in the face to stop a behavior from being a hinderance and restore rationality and mainly the ability to ENJOY life, liberty, and property (according to Locke). �I think leaving the door open for frequent open discussions on just about anything most of the time is respectful to the young'uns. �I think if we reason with them enough and have a close relationship they'll usually be pretty good at guessing what we would say and why we would say it. �
My posts keep getting too long.
I'll tell you my favorite argument I've had yet with my two year old. �He was crying in the car. �I picked up a book, hoping reading it would soothe him. �The book was "100 ways to get to one hundred.". I picked up the book and read, "one", he cried, "not 1", I read "two", he cried "not 2", I read "three", he cried, "not 3", all the way up to ten. �I don't believe that irrational mindset will ever go away completely because I and everybody I know still gets like that sometimes. �I think the behavior training is to mitigate the damage we cause when we're in that irrational state of mind. �That's why that Locke scholar said, "the less rational were to be tolerated, and well-treated, but were not to have full rights..". He should have meant all of us at sometimes.
Right now, thanks to this thread, I have identified my discipline goals-mainly to make sure the boy enjoys group activities without drama. �And I have identified two resources - skillstreaming (which I wouldn't have found before realizing behavior relates to mental health) and nutured heart which sounds like it will help define the difference between authoritarian and authoritative parenting to my husband, which I have been struggling to explain. � �And it's available on cd he can listen to it on the way to work. Everybody says both parents should be on the same page with discipline. But as new parents we have two different views of what discipline looks like. The nurtured heart looks like something we can both understand and get on the same page over; it looks like it addresses several points the hubby and i couldn't get on the same page about with a all-around acceptable solution.

Well, there are plenty of situations where the reasons for a decision I've made are not a 'need to know' for my DS10. That's not to say that I don't (often) provide an explanation/reasoning, but again it's not something that he's *entitled* to. And as has been the case for us in the past, providing explanations opens the door for negotiations, in his opinion. See, in his mind, if he can come up with a reasonable argument supporting his opposing position, then surely it must follow that we'll change our mind and allow whatever it is he's after. Having exercised this in the past, DS has taken it to mean that it applies to EVERYthing and he loves to argue. He's a persistent type and even though continuing to belabor a point is not to his advantage, it's most definitely in his makeup .

I'm of the mindset that blind obedience is not always best, however, it's necessary in some cases, safety being the biggest. As a kid, I hated "because I said so" - as a parent, sometimes I use it myself. There are times/places/situations to question and then there just simply aren't. As DS has grown, my parenting has changed to meet the needs of each stage and even to improve upon areas where I feel I didn't make the best decisions and where I can see the results of 'flaws' in my thinking.

Ultimately, just as I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all approach to the educational matters of gifted kids (or any kid, for that matter), I also don't believe there's a one-size-fits-all approach to parenting. Sure, some things would be an ideal and if all children were the same, it'd be great. But, there are different personalities, temperaments, thought processes, reasoning abilities, etc. to take into account.

If we ran our household as a democratic republic with consent of the governed, it would be mayhem.

We do usually explain our decisions and have defined categories for why we say no (safety; morals; inconvenience to others encompass almost all of them). But minors do not have a say in defining the categories or in consequences for misdeeds.

Their neural capacity for judgment is not fully developed yet, and mine is.

DeeDee

Lucky you; I'm still working on mine.

LOL. Mine is not working perfectly, but at least the wiring is in place; whereas it's not even wired in for people younger than 20 or so.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/teenbrain/work/adolescent.html

DeeDee

zhian - I get what you are saying, and I do agree with the principle of what you are saying. I do find it upsetting when I see adults treating children as 'not quite people' and I agree that where needs to be mutual respect. Absolutely 'because I said so' won't cut it, at least not very often or for very long.

But the thing is, being a parent is hard, hard, HARD, and I doubt anyone can do it without at least occasionally making decisions counter to their principles. And because mutual respect doesn't happen early, and children - even gifted ones - don't have the ability to always accurately predict the future, it is always a balancing act.

I'll give you an example. My LO still wears diapers to sleep. Every morning he has to get up and take his diaper off. And because he doesn't like transitions - every morning he fights it. Every morning we restate the case: you have to take your diaper off because you will get a diaper rash, etc, etc, etc. And every morning he screams NOOOOO! and throws himself on the floor. On a good morning I can go through the list, talk him into it, get the nappy off and then get on with the day. On a morning where I have been up 5-6 times and been lucky to sleep for four interrupted hours all night, and its the 3rd night in a row like that? Well, I'm only human and it is very likely to become "Just take the diaper off now!"

The other thing you probably have picked up on now is that this is an area where parents disagree with each other. (Just visit a few mothers groups sheesh!) You are also in the position on this board where you are going to be placed as an 'outsider' criticizing 'insider' behavior. So be warned! LOL!

But, as I said, even the most well intentioned parent is going to loose it occasionally. Because being a parent is really, really hard.

ETA: I just wanted to make it clear I was thinking of parents I know irl, in case any pp thought I was talking about them.