Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Reading struggles

The psychologist was as well. The only thing is that her scores from school tests look nothing like that. Her reading MAPS scores (and math as well, for that matter) fluctuate wildly. In the fall, they might be in the 53rd and in the spring, the 89th and then back to the 70th and then another drop to the 61st. There is no pattern at all to her school achievement scores, but on MAPS she has never broken the 89th percentile for reading (math has been higher in the 90s at times).

Two weeks before the WIAT & GORT testing, she was given an oral reading test at school (DRA, I believe) that put her in the 50th percentile. Her DRA from the end of 2rd was higher grade level than from the end of 3rd. Then her GORT says that she's in the 99th for oral reading. I can't make heads nor tails of two oral reading tests being so divergent in such a short period!

We treated it as dyslexia first by following a program made for dyxlexic learners, Barton Reading & spelling, but DS did not like it. I came to believe that his difficulties were mild enough or his verbal skills good enough that any solid research based program would probably be ok. We liked Headsprout, but that may be to basic for your DD. Since, as Kriston touched on, dyslexia is only a description of an outcome and not at all descriptive of the problem, we started with the least radical treatment. I noticed along the way that he learned to overcome many bad habits, some of which may be developmental maturity issues. He still tries to guess at words based on first and random middle letters at times, or will read 'saw' as 'was' if he's not careful, but otherwise has the left to right tracking and decoding down pat with increasing fluency.

Hmmm. So here are a couple of other things to consider in your sort:

I believe that MAP testing requires her to read off of a computer screen. That reduces her control over the position of the text relative to her eyes (think about how when we read a piece of paper we set it down in front of us and angle it a bit). It also introduces glare, reduces opportunities to finger track text, etc. It might be interesting for you to listen to her read a passage aloud from a computer screen vs. from a piece of paper. She is also probably reading passages for a longer period of time on a computer administered test than an individually administered test. If it is taking effort for her to track, a fatigue factor might be higher for MAP then for other tests.


At a certain level, the DRA is supposed to ask for silent rather than oral reading. It could be that the oral reading nets a higer outcome for her because it allows her to hear the words as well as see them. It could also be that the font size and spacing are different from test to test or as levels change. In the Rigby assessment (which I think is similar to DRA--I'm not familiar with GORT) the font and spacing shrink as the passage level increases. Does your daughter think she understands better when she reads out loud or when she reads silently?

Finally, there is some unavoidable subjectivity in the administration of these tests. In my school we frequently end up consulting with one another when deciding whether or not to accept an answer or not. Whether or not that answer is accepted determines whether or not the next passage is offered. Also, different tests/schools/districts have different approaches to determining level. In my district, we keep going until the child's level is "frustrational". If a teacher/school were to stop when a child first scored at an instructional level, they could come out with a very different result. I have had students test "instructional" at 3-4 levels before hitting a frustrational level. If I stopped at the first instructional level, the "score" would be very different than it is with our policy of continuing until frustration. Does either test have a grade level ceiling? That would impact scores as well.

An earlier poster made a great suggestion (sorry--I forget who's suggestion it was), which was to ask your daughter what specifically she finds difficult about reading and also to ask her about her testing experiences. You might ask her which test she thinks is the hardest, and why. My DD surprised me several years ago by spontaneously analyzing her difficulty with an oral reading test. It was a big "aha" moment for me both in understanding the score and in understanding her as a learner.

Sorry to keep adding my two cents . I find the questions you are raising to be really interesting--I don't get to have these kinds of problem solving conversations during summer break. I must be going through withdrawal!

She is pretty clear that her understanding is better when she is reading silently. The impression I got was that both her 2nd and 3rd grade teachers administered the DRA by having her read aloud to them. At the end of 2nd, her teacher said that her reading on the DRA tested at mid-4th grade. At the end of 3rd, that teacher said that her DRA came out at end of 3rd (exactly at proficient for that point in the year, but not at all advanced).

I wonder on this. Dd's 3rd grade teacher was very clearly not impressed with dd and felt her to be of average intelligence. She told me as much repeatedly (and in front of dd) and even went so far as to imply that my dh was unintelligent and that explained why dd9 wasn't as bright as me or dd11. I was chewed out in front of dd early in the year and told that I was the source of all of her problems when I questioned why her MAPS scores had gone from the 89th and 94th at the end of 2nd (reading and math) to the 50s for both at the start of 3rd.

FWIW, just to clarify, dd was a 4th grader last year and last year was a better year. She was in GT reading daily and a somewhat accelerated math class (not subject acceleration). It went better, but the reading frustrations remain and I still don't feel like she is performing as well as her IQ scores would indicate she should (unless IQ doesn't predict achievement as well as I had thought).

I've been away from this discussion for a couple days. Somewhere along the line you mentioned that her oral reading is choppy. One thing that we have worked on with my DD is guided oral reading. I read the page/chapter aloud first, then she reads it aloud. This has allowed her to practice her oral skills without worrying about comprehension (since I've read it out loud to her). For DD this has allowed her to make huge improvements in her expression and fluidity.

I also wondered since we are in the same state. Has your school used RTI as an excuse not to offer additional support, i.e. she tests at grade level so she doesn't need extra LD or GT support? I've talked to several 2e parents who are running into this in our district.

Thanks for the guided reading suggestion. I'll give that a try.

They actually have used her being at grade level or just a bit beyond on their tests as reason to say that she isn't gifted. It took over a year of working with the district to get a GT id in language arts only. We were told initially by the school that two IQ tests and private achievement testing were due to "good guessing" and that her times where MAPS have come out higher were also good guessing.

She is honestly, much more intuitive in math and I really think that is her strongest area innately. Last year she was in accelerated math but does not have a math GT id. Accelerated math basically just consists of the exact same curriculum delivered somewhat faster.

The first time her IQ was tested, her PRI was in the 99th and her WIAT math composite was at the 98th. She also tested quite well on science and fairly well on math on the EXPLORE this past year, but I'm leaving the math battle for another day while we supplement with EPGY at home to see if we can get those all important MAPS scores up consistently to the 90s again.

The psych who tested her wrote very clearly in bold that dd does not have a LD. She may not. Either way, without a documented LD, she's not going to be getting any support for her "struggles" b/c she isn't below grade level.

That is incredibly frustrating. Despite multiple outside indicators, they seem to be saying that only their specific tests are valid -- and even those are suspect if they don't provide results that fit the teacher's preconceived notion?! I hope that your DD will get a better teacher who understands her true potential next school year.

Similarly, you can get books on CD or tape and let her listen to a reading more than once to really pick up flow and phrasing. The idea is that the reader then practices it until it sounds like the recorded version and then reads aloud to someone else. Even better, if there is a younger child in your DD's life that enjoys being read to, she can practice for story telling sessions. Many elementary aged (and adult aged, for that matter) readers need practice to pick up the art of reading aloud for someone else's pleasure. It's a great way to master phrasing and fluency. If you go the chapter book route instead of the picture book route (which would be better for younger child read aloud), I recommend looking for a book with good read aloud rhythms to it. Some books have it, some don't. My absolute favorite older child read aloud: The Miraculous Journey of Edward Tulane. It's a book I personally will never get tired of reading aloud, and the chapters are both short and satisfying.


Yes, this could have a big effect. The less open the tester is to the child, the less the child is likely to say. In the assessment we give, the response has to go beyond logic to show "higher level reasoning". I've learned to say, "tell me more about that" until the child has nothing else to say in order to get an accurate read. The first response for many children is the simple one. "Tell me more" is what reveals whether there is more to it than that. If DD's teacher didn't believe in her capability, then she would probably have accepted DD's initial responses as complete. And if DD witnessed these conversations between you and teacher, she wouldn't necessarily respond well to teacher. I think in that situation my DD would be more afraid of looking like she was 'trying to prove teacher wrong' than she would be in demonstrating the full extent of her understanding.

Hmmm...I'm wondering about the guided reading.

My DS6's working memory tests even higher than his VCI on the WISC, and I'm pretty sure that's because he memorizes things as a coping mechanism. Wouldn't the guided reading activities just encourage more memorization? Is that what you're going for with these sorts of activities, or is there some other mechanism at work there?

P.S. I do know that working memory is only very short-term memory. I don't want anyone to think that he's reciting entire books from memory. But he can hold a page in his head long enough to spit it back with *ease*.

dd9's WMI was average and I'm not sure that she would be memorizing. She tends to wander a bit mentally.

Re Taminy, yes unfortunately dd did witness some of the interactions btwn me and her 3rd grade teacher. I tried to avoid that, but the teacher did not.

The worst was at the start of the year when I expressed concerns about the erratic MAPS scores while dd was out on the playground. As dd came back, I meant to break off the conversation, but the teacher began yelling at me and then turned to dd and told her that I was causing her problems and asked dd to support her position -- that I was pushing her. Dd looked like a deer caught in headlights and I was blindsided myself. We left, went to the car, and dd burst into tears telling me that, "I don't want to be in Ms. ___'s class anymore. She was mean to you mommy!"

I was completely pissed, to put it lightly. The only reason that I didn't ream her to the principal was that I had some sympathy for a really tough emotional spot she was in (her only child had been killed in a car accident a year or so prior and she was clearly suffering).