Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion behavior systems???

Was curious if others use this...I used to use a variety of token system when I taught and they always worked wonders and allowed me to focus on the positive behavior and not the negative (when I did my classroom systems I didn't take the tokens away, kids could just earn them for making good choices).....and we have been looking at starting one at home for our 6 year old......we are torn between these 2 thought camps.

Camp 1: Earning a set amount of tokens for a positive behavior (1 token for saying please/thank you, 5 tokens for dressing himself,.....) and then being able to exchange the tokens he has earned in for different things (25 tokens for an extra book at bedtime, 50 tokens for a bike ride to get an ice-cream,.....)

Camp 2: Earning set amount of tokens for positive behavior (like set up above) BUT we can also take tokens away for negative...such as lose 3 for talking back or saying no, lose 5 for demanding something,....

My little guy really thrives on positive but we have been having a tricky time with some not so pleasant attitude/behavior issues which I know some stem from his OE issues(yelling and talking back, hitting, saying no, saying mean/spiteful things)and it has gotten out of hand in some cases.....

For example....last week he stuck his foot into his 2 large plastic lego container boxes and proceeded to try to shuffle across the floor with his feet in the boxes (no big deal), he then lifted up his foot sending a huge wave of legos flying everywhere (again, not a huge deal)..he then put his feet back in the boxes and attempted to pick up as many legos as he could on his feet and fling them everywhere as he vocally stated if he could "throw" further with his left or right foot (ok....as I take a deep breath and look at over 100 small legos everywhere, he is experimenting with force/simple machines...)...then he looks at me and yells/demands that I pick them all up as he goes into the other room and leaves this giant mess. This is not okay with me....and this is where the "getting in trouble" comes into play....we usually counter with, if he doesn't come pick up the mess, then the legos go into time out for the afternoon....and he throws a fit.

last week he was very upset after a bout of time out for hitting me because he was angry and told me that he was tired of always being told what he did wrong and that he has been very unhappy because he always seems to be in trouble...and it really made me think hard about how I have been handling the situation and how I really need to try to be more positive...He is highly gifted and has a way of out-thinking systems....like I can see this whole scenario play out if we went with the token/take away system...in fact, I would almost bet money that he would do this exact thing.....if he knows that he has 100 tokens in the jar and that he wants to do something that "costs" 70 tokens....and he knows that he loses 20 for hitting...then he will go ahead and hit knowing full well that he will still be able to earn his 70 token reward....I know that the Camp 1 idea would work great but don't know if I should add in the take away or not? Would love to hear opinions

We believe pretty strongly that positive behavior is a reward unto itself. I would hate for DD to get the idea that she should only be polite/kind/helpful if she is going to get something out of it. This system you are discussing gives me the creeps, to be honest. When your kid is out in the real world and nobody rewards him for these things, where will the motivation come from??? These are not behaviors that a child should engage in simply because (and when) he wants an ice cream cone.

DD3 already likes it best when all of her family is happy and she does her part to contribute to family happiness (most of the time). She uses please and thank you and even "may I?" just because that is how we talk to her.

Belle, we have tried the reward/take away system. The 'take away' aspect did make a difference for a short time, but it wore off quickly. I wouldn't recommend it.

We have also tried the natural consequences system, where you would take away the legos as you mentioned, but that either produced indifference (there are so many other things to do) or a fit as you described. Sometimes I just had a hard time thinking of a natural consequence for certain behaviors. (Some are very clear as in the lego scenario.)

I have a similar thread going, which you can see here: http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/51487/1.html. We are currently trying instant rewards, and have had some success with it so far. Grinity posted an interesting sounding link, but I haven't had time to sit down and read it yet.

I model polite behavior consistently for my children, but they don't always choose to emulate it. My DD5 doesn't usually choose her behavior based on what makes her family happy, but more on what is most important to her at the time. She can be quite generous about pleasing others, but that is not her prime motivation. Maybe it is an age thing, as I remember her being much more a people pleaser at 3 than she is now at 5. Now she is like a little moody teenager, LOL.

For me, the natural consequence of throwing legos all over the floor and refusing to pick them up is that they remain all over the floor, leaving no room for dancing without hurting one's feet, getting lost and broken, and providing a disincentive for others to visit. I would not call putting the legos into "time out" a natural consequence.

I would definitely not describe DD3 as a "people pleaser" and, in fact, I was calling her a teenager only the other day. I did not mean to imply that I've got it all figured out or that my DD is perfect, by any means. We have our ups and downs, but when we all pay attention to each other, communicate our feelings, and show that we respect each other, we all get along very well. I wouldn't expect DD to behave in any way other than how she does--like a happy, well-adjusted, totally crazy 3 year old.

All kids are different and require different approaches. Some children require extrinsic motivation and that's perfectly normal and okay. Extrinsic motivation done right can lead to intrinsic motivation. There's plenty of empirical-based research on the successful use of token economies and other behavioral approaches.
That said, Belle, as a professional, I would go with option 1. Always start with the least restrictive approach. Punishers should always be last resort. I do think that you may be setting yourself up for failure by having such a prescribed approach. What I mean is the more complicated the harder the plan is to follow consistently. I would try awarding tokens or points for a few appropriate behaviors you would like to increase. Do it frequently at first. Pair token with verbal praise, 1:1 attn, etc., and you should be able to fade token more quickly. Depending upon the number of tokens you think you think your son may earn I would have a low number to earn exchange of tokens. You may want to leave deciding what the reward will be up to your son (within reason) as choice and control are big issues at this age.
It's pretty much a behavioral rule of thumb that ignoring the unpleasant behavior goes along with rewarding good behavior. Also, consistency in whatever approach you do is important.
Best of luck!

Thanks guys for the comments and the link...sdrothco - you said exactly what I was thinking yesterday...DS6 is just like a moody teenager it is almost eerie like! Hubby and I model on a consistent basis and I am at a loss...from the 15+ years of teaching kids and almost always finding a system that works in allowing a child to still be themselves while learning positive behaviors while respecting themselves and others....my son is the anomoly.

As far as being concerned about stepping on legos and leaving no room or not allowing others to visit in the room...hahahah...he could care less! But there are issues that are getting out of hand...such as hitting. He has serious emotional OE issues and when he is happy, he is super happy, when he is mad, he is a nightmare....when he wants to please, he can be the sweetest little child on the universe.

take last week..He knows his bed routine - he gets a certain number of stories each night while I lay in bed reading with him and then it is lights off...same as every night - never changes (even when on vacation)...and the other night, after the last book was read and I reached over to turn off the light he shared that he was mad and wanted more books and then proceeded to kick the snot out of my thigh in a small mad tantrum leaving an enormous bruise (he is the size of a 10 year old). I have had multiple bruises on me from times he has hit, kicked or smacked me over the last month or so...I have tried just speaking with him about his feelings and proper ways to vent, have tried the lovey dovey method that everyone has a right to their feelings...and now he does time out for hitting...which has led us to try to come up with some kind of system that allows us to focus on the positive but am I just supposed to ignore the out of control behaviors in hopes that by modeling and focusing on the positive that they will "go away"?

Oh, no, certainly not. I am absolutely not an advocate of parents letting themselves be pushed around or abused. I do believe in modeling. When DD hits, I try to think about how I would like her to behave if a child hit her. Would I want her to hit back or otherwise try to punish the child? Would I want her to yell? Would I want her to tell the child to stop, and then remove herself from the situation if the child did not stop? Clearly the latter would be the best solution. So if she acts violently, I leave. I protect myself, just as I would want her to protect herself if someone hit her. We have had great success with this approach (much more so than we had when we yelled or tried to send her away for time outs).

I would be the last person on earth to say that there is only one right way of parenting. I am very aware that I do things as a parent that I never believed I would do. So please don't think that I am judging. You asked for opinions, and I gave mine perhaps a bit more candidly than I should have done.

Not to hijack, but I am not aware of any research suggesting that these rewards systems do promote development of intrinsic motivation (and I am aware of some research to the contrary), so I would be very interested to see some if anyone wants to share.

This is a tough one. It really depends.

Mr W has gotten aggressive in the last 4 weeks.

We vary our response from reacting to removing. DW sometimes acts like she is hurt, which sends Mr W into a wailing crying session because he thinks he has hurt her. I think this is the most effective due to his level of empathy for things.

There is a developing line of work that suggests that some kids will never submit to their parents and that by striking them (and not showing hurt or sympathy) they are turned into psychopaths because they never learn to develop empathy for their victims.

A couple of thoughts FWTW...

Natural Consequences: When they exist in a way that creates impact, generally the most effective. I think what can be considered natural is somewhat based on phrasing. If legos get thrown all over his own room, then leaving them to be stepped on is possibly an effective natural consequence. However, if they are all over the living room, they are a "risk" for others and I do think that putting the legos in "time out" can be considered a natural consequence. IRL, if someone leaves a hazard in the road, it will be removed by the city and probably disposed of or impounded. So it is natural that if a hazard is left in the living room, the person who removes the hazard takes possession of it and determines the conditions for return. Which brings me to...

Rules: The smarter kids are, the better they are at negotiating and hair splitting. We have three rules: Safe, Respectful, Responsible. Can't think of any problem behavior that can't be addressed as a violation of one of those three ways of living. It allows you to switch to question mode ("Is leaving the legos on the floor safe? Respectful? Responsible? How are you going to fix that problem? If I have to fix the problem there will be a consequence attached to it").

Consequences: IMHO children are children. No matter how intelligent, they are still not of an age to be "in charge". If we are helping our children learn how to co-exist in a world with others, then we have to help them learn that there are boundaries and expectations that are enforceable and have consequences. It can provoke a lot of unpleasantness in response, but with consistent enforcement behavior will generally change (after it first spikes in an attempt to derail the system we put in place ).

Reinforcers: I personally have mixed feelings about reinforcers, but I think it is a case by case decision. However, when reinforcers are used, I think it helps to keep these things in mind:

1) To be effective, the initial reinforcer should be based on criteria a child is likely to meet a little over 50% of the time. This makes the reinforcer reachable, but motivates some improved effort. Over time, the criteria for earning the reinforcer should grow. So, for instance, if the reinforcer is initially earned for every half day without hitting, it should eventually move to being earned for a day without hitting. Then it should be earned for a week without hitting. The size of the reinforcer can grow in relation to the changing time frame (e.g. one token per 1/2 day becomes 2 tokens for a full day, becomes 7 tokens for a week. Criteria is all or nothing, so once the criteria is 2 per day, there isn't a way to have a one token day). This can go hand in hand with consequences. So, no mention of not earning a token or taking a token away, provide an appropriate consequence for unsafe behavior; then when a token is earned, focus positive attention on that success.

2) Reinforcers seem to work best when attached to specific, observable behaviors and considered a short term intervention for that particular behavior. For instance, it seems like the highest priority behavior would be aggression. Identify a replacement behavior for dealing with anger (e.g. going to a "stop the world spot" to cool down) and reinforce every time he uses that in place of aggression.

3) Consider the size of the reinforcement. If it is likely to stockpile so that DS begins to manipulate/weigh the "cost", then it is time to adjust the reinforcement schedule. There should never be so much stockpiled that it feels like there is an excess of wealth.

Also, it helps to have a variety of possible consequences in your head. That way fix it or take a consequence can't be gamed as effectively. In other words, if DS says "what's the consequence?", you can say, "I"ll let you know that if you choose not fix the problem". Then the key is to set conditions so that DS can't change his mind after he hears the consequence ("Ooooh. That's unfortunate that you didn't like the consequence. Well, next time you can make a different choice, but you already moved past the fix it without a consequence point"). Love and Logic would say that we often allow ourselves to be pressured into deciding on a consequence in the moment and that it is ok and often best to say, "OK, you chose not to fix it. I'll let you know what the consequence is later".

I don't pretend to be the expert here--believe me, my own DS is a great limit-pusher. So, take my two cents for whatever they're worth

I agree with Taminy's advice.
You may want to try a punisher - loss of privelege - for aggression if it continues. I would try the positive approach first though. I would also suggest you ignore the agression and walk away (assuming your child doesn't self-injure of isn't at risk of hurting anyone else). If your son is doing this to gain access to tangibles then make sure you don't give into his demands no matter what, especially when he's hitting you.
By ignoring, I don't mean ignore the child, I mean specifically ignore the behavior. Avoid statements during the heat of the moment like "no hitting". I know this is a hard one for parents to grasp but it all comes down to attn. Now this does not mean you should not discuss more appropriate ways of getting wants met when your child is calm - just never during the behavior itself.
It's really hard to assess like this so you may want to seek help from a professional should the aggressive behavior continue.
Also, there's plenty of peer-reviewed research on the successful use of token economies, etc. published in reputable journals. I don't have the links but folks are welcome to google - The Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis, or Behavioral Interventions - just to name a few.