Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Now (not) to talk to your kids.

Thought this was an interesting article.

http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/

Yes I read this some time ago. I try to be careful to praise specific things...I emphasize making smart choices rather than being smart. I stress perseverance the most as well as staying on task. I also don't emphasize what grade level he is working on. DS had developed issues of not trying hard things b/c in school he was always the best, the smartest and the other kids told him so. When we started HSing, I challenged him and for 3 months he completely shut down. The first quarter of HSing was easy as I figured out what level he was on...then when things got a bit challenging, it was a huge blow to his ego. Now with no one to compare himself to, I think things are better.

Is the �majority� that chose the easy test closer to 51% or 90%? This study (or this article) seems to be written as if the authors really want to make their point.

In any case, I do agree with the assertions. But hadn�t the conclusion that vacuous praise can lead to fear of failure been widely accepted by psychologists decades ago?

Is this information really just being �discovered� by the education professionals?

Yes, but the more interesting point is that there's reason to think that it's not just "vacuous" praise that can be counter-productive, but any praise. In fact, I've read criticism of the experiment mentioned in the article, or one very like it, which pointed out that they should have had a control group of children who were not praised in any way, neither for intelligence nor for effort. People tend to think at least one of:
(a) it's fine to praise provided there's genuinely something impressive to praise; or
(b) that praising a child for effort is beneficial even if praising them for intelligence isn't.
As I understand it, the evidence isn't there to support either idea. The counter-theory is that any praise lowers the child's intrinsic motivation for the activity (e.g., making them less likely to choose the activity next time they have a genuinely free choice, which they expect to be unrewarded by praise). Buying this idea really requires a fundamental reorganisation of how to relate to children! I think it's a complicated area, and the research is certainly confusing at times and more needs to be done. I do think that every parent ought to read Alfie Kohn's book "Punished by Rewards", and no, I'm not his alias nor his publisher :-)

This shut down of effort is something that we are battling right now. I've tied it to DS6's perfectionism, but maybe praise has something to do with it as well.

This makes better sense to me than groundless ego boosting. I�m still in the camp for praising effort and perseverance, especially in young children, but am interested in your book recommendation.

I wonder how you see this happening in an ideal world. Personally, I "praise" my DD3 in the same way I "praise" adults. That is, I don't really "praise" at all, but I do express my feelings honestly and sometimes in a complimentary way. So for me I think changing how I talk to DD would necessitate changing how I talk to anyone. It's a pretty daunting prospect.

Okay, I'm confused.

I'm always reading articles about the so-called horrors of (honest) ability grouping because less-academically-capable kids will supposedly perform at a higher level if you tell them they're as smart as the kids who actually are smart. This idea is being re-re-recycled right now in middle schools in Stamford, CT. The schools have started replacing ability-grouped classes with mixed ability classes. One bright kid they interviewed was not impressed.

So, which way is this supposed to go? If telling less-bright kids that they're just as capable as others isn't empty praise (and a lie), what is? If telling highly intelligent seven-year-olds that they can't do 4th grade math isn't empty criticism (and a lie), what is? Aren't these lies equally damaging?

Why doesn't the basketball coach have to tell these lies?

And why do educators seem to use them as they please to suit their own agendas?

Hmm.

Val

My comment to that quote does seem confusing when removed from the context of the article which doesn�t address the issue of ability grouping. I was looking at their findings just from the viewpoint of most effective individual reinforcement. Now that you point it out, I can see how educators might use this to fortify their argument for less ability grouping.

The neuropsychologist/professor asked my son about his current grade level and he had no idea since we don't do grade levels. I think she needed to know so she would know where to start the test so she asked him how old he was.

I had the "problem" of other people telling him how smart he was. He heard other people use words like scary smart and genius to describe him after they listened to him talk. He had friends asking him about his IQ. But dealing with physical issues kept him grounded in reality and it always worked best for him to only compete with himself.

Trying to homeschool a child who is much more articulate than I am, who can correct my grammar, who finds alternate ways of solving math problems when I can only do it the one way I was taught, who relies on an excellent verbal memory, while I had to rely on my note taking ability, is challenging and I find myself saying things like "How did you think of that?" "How did you know that!" "How can you possibly get that answer without using pencil and paper?" or laughing at the jokes he makes up until I am in tears. That is the kind of praise he hears from me and it seems to have a positive effect on him.