Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Competitiveness and Intensity

My ds5 has always been very competitive, obsessional and intense.

I find this very hard to deal with and have always tried to stress that all I expect is that he does his best, not be the best. I have also tried to emphasise that sometimes mummy just needs five minutes to herself.

He just doesn't seem to get this and some days I move around the house, upstairs and downstairs to just get away from him. Sounds awful I know. Anyway I have even been in the bath and washing my hair under the water and when I open my eyes, there he is still talking. On the really bad days it feels like the shower scene from psycho, when she pulls back the curtain and there is the grinning baddie! He interupts, talks over people, shouts and demands to know the ins and outs of whatever it is that I am discussing with another adult(and nothing whatsoever to do with him) I am virtually unable to make or receive a phone call when he is at home. He demands attention and interaction every waking hour at times. At others he will play with lego for hours, still talking and questioning but not so intense.
In the car he shouts out number facts, demands answers to questions and even gives directions(go left here, get in the other lane mummy, change gear, stop at the red light, second exit at the roundabout) He even shouts instructions to other drivers. He wants to learn to drive. He is five for goodness sake.
He also has tantrums because he counts things, lamposts, speed signs. On and on. It is like a permanent driving test.

Is this normal for g+t kids or do I have a problem on my hands.

We have to be at school at half eight for when the caretaker opens the gate so that we can not only be the first in reception queue but now the first in the entire school in the playground. Today when his class were filing in, he momentarily lost concentration and then noticed that several kids had already gone in. He barged past them shouting, I was first and pushed them out the way.

His teacher gave me a look. Because I am a lone parent I never get a break from him and have even resorted to putting him his car seat and standing outside the car door for five minutes. He still talks. I have even locked myself in the shed where he can't get to me and demand answers to his questions that I just don't have!

I really don't.

At times he can be supersentive to other's feelings and thoughts and others he can be super sized insensitive and downright rude. He doesn't seem to read the social signals, other times he has commented on something that not even other adults have picked up on. E.g when people are in pain and hiding it, issues arond access for disabled people is a big one.
He is one end of the spectrum or the other. Nothing in between. He barges in on conversations, is rude and demanding and interferes in everything.
His teacher complains that he is socially immature.Anyone else experience this?

Sorry for the negative tone of this post, but I am exhausted and hoping there is a btdt out there who will advise when this actually gets a bit easier.
I don't even know if he is gifted, although quite confident after reading all the posts here that sound so familiar. No other child in this area wher we live is even remotely like him and it is so hard to judge what is common to kids like him and how to deal with it.

Just a check: he doesn't have Asperger's Syndrome, does he? I'm no expert and he isn't sounding 100% typical of AS to me, but a few red flags are popping up. If you aren't sure, it might be worth at least checking on. If nothing else, some of the same strategies that are useful for living with someone with AS might be useful for you, too.

Have you tried requiring "quiet time" for a while in the afternoon? I lived and died by that when I was worn out by all the talking. (I'm an introvert, so my alone time is a physical and psychological necessity for me!)

Have you tried finding things your son can immerse himself in alone? This may require baby steps, and he will probably resist at first, but I think you have to be firm about it. You have needs, and he's trampling on them, whether he means to or not. He sounds like an extrovert, but just as introverts have to learn how to deal with people, extroverts have to learn how to be alone.

Rather than running away to get some peace and quiet, I think you have to lay down the law. You're allowed to set limits on how he can use your time. The shower ought to be a safe zone! He's old enough to understand and respect this. Set some rules and use the carrot-and-stick if you must in order to get him to follow the rules.

Playdates with friends help, too. If he has other kids to talk to, he'll leave you alone more.

Good luck! I'm exhausted just reading about it!

Hiya Rachibaby,

I can understand your exhaustion and I have had some experience with DS7 doing similar things (the nonstop talking, following me around whilst talking - although never opening up my shower curtain, but standing near it :), telling me to watch out for certain things whilst driving, and wanting to be involved in my conversations with others). I think he was doing those things more when he was younger like your son and now he seems to be a bit more calm and socially aware. So it does get better, but I've had to work with him too on what is socially acceptable.
I think DS has just so much information in his head that he has to get it out. He has always been a busy guy and this is normal for him. I think school has also helped him become more aware of when to speak and just have common courtesy.
How does your son do in school? Is there anyone (family or friends) who are close by so you can get a break? That is so very important so you can cope.
I hope my sharing has helped you somewhat.
Take care,
Moni

Some of this sounds familiar. My son didn't throw tantrums, it was me having mommy meltdowns from lack of sleep and no time alone. The talking and questioning and occasional bossiness definitely sounds familiar, but he is not as bossy as my daughter was because he has more empathy.

He always needed less sleep than I did, just like his Dad, and if he was awake, I was supposed to be awake.

At five or six he stopped asking quite as many questions, because he learned to look up answers online, but the questions were replaced with "Mom, did you know ..." or "Mom, you've gotta see this really cool Youtube video" or "Mom, this new video game is coming out next month, do you want to know what it is?" to which I reply not really, but he laughs and tells me anyway and tries to convince me that it is "educational" in some way hoping that I will buy it for him.

Like your son, he can tell when people are in pain and hiding it. At 4 1/2 when his grandmother suddenly lost many years worth of memories (including the fact that he was her grandson who lived next door to her and saw her every day) and she couldn't communicate very well, he understood her pain and somehow knew what she was trying to say. It was almost like a psychic connection of some kind. I remember one time when my Dad, who takes care of my mother at home, went outside because we heard sirens. It turned out there was a grass fire in our neighborhood. My son told me that he thought we should stay inside with my mother because she might be frightened. We stay with my mother any time my Dad has to leave the house. My son is so patient with her when she asks the same questions over and over again because her short term memory is limited to about 30 seconds.

My son always seemed to have a lot more empathy than my former cheerleader daughter and I know that he doesn't intend to annoy me. Most of the time he just wants to share something he finds interesting and I feel really bad about snapping at him. For example, he just shared this quote that he heard on Youtube from a guy who played Guitar Hero: "You laugh because I'm different, I laugh because you are all the same." He liked the quote and thought it was worth sharing.

He can tell when there is something bothering me and if I don't tell him what it is or if I try to tell him that it is something else, he can tell that I am not being entirely truthful and it bothers him. He thinks I should be able to tell him anything. When he senses that I am upset or worried about something, he tells me that I am really a good mom and he tries to talk me through it or make me laugh.

Some of this sounds familiar. I like all the above advice. I had issues like this with both my girls. It gets better, they *mellow* a little, at least mine did. Give it 1 1/2 to 2 years and the intensity may increase. May not go away, but it will take the edge off a little.

I *trained* them to manage their intensity and when it was appropriate to let all hang loose and when they should *work* to contain it a bit.

Calm, consistent, redirecting. Did I mention calmly. That's the key IMO.

Keeping one's intensity in check is tough. Its hard not to come across as cold and aloof as a result of keeping it at the the lowest setting. Patience and empathy go a LONG way to see how one is being perceived.

One has to tailor the subjects, the simultaneity, complexity, words and emotions to the audience and the situation. Too much information, too many ideas, too many tracks, and too much to much overwhelms people and makes them shut down or just run away screaming!

Yes, good point and a five year old is not expected to learn this, it takes time. This is something I have, I mean, a child can work on for many many years.

OK, DS12 is now a perfectly nice person, still can be rude/supersensitive and a bit of a Maverick, but much much calmer. I highlighted all the things that I could remember from age 5. He had a behavior chart in 1st and 2nd grade of school.

Do you have a problem on your hands? Yes and No - I believe that for my child, I was seeing a child with a bad combination of 'normal gifted intensity' and anxiety/'reaction to a bad school fit.'

What helped us was
Flylady and her structure.
Me getting used to his unusally high needs, like a child with a disability. Me always remembering to take care of myself, so that I could spread calm, because my DS was always feeding off my own energy.
Journaling about which one behavior was bothering me the most and sticking to that one thing and letting everything else roll off my back.
Bucking in and buying him a handheld computer game, that I could treaten to 'take away' for 5 minutes if I really needed a behavior of his to Stop.

The book 'the explosive child' has some good tips.

For me, the hallmark of those years was 'pick my battles' - it was easier for me to refuse to do something innapropriate and make him earn my compliance with good behavior than it was for me to try and make him do something that I couldn't make him do.

BTW, DS12 recently said to me - Mom, it's not that I don't know when I'm hurting other people's feelings, it's just that I don't always care.

There are times when not being overly interested in how other people feel can allow you to 'do the right thing.' Looking back at my childhood, I was always more concerned with safety than people's feelings. Telling people, I object to that sort of racist humor, does hurt their feelings, but it is worth it. Here I've tried to develop my skill at very lovingly being 'cruel to be kind' when I think it's needed. I wish I was better at it.

I realized that your son's aims and goal aren't as lofty as all that now, but if you see his intensity and commitment to his vision as something to be nurtured, I wouldn't be suprised if his aims and goals get bigger quite soon.

As for the present moment, will your son watch TV or play internet games such as Adventure Quest or Runescape, or handheld games? Of course hooking up with a teenager or grandparent type who can devote one-to-one time is more ideal. Check with your place of worship or local high school, as teens there may be expected to do 'good works' of somekind, and entertaining your high need kid qualifies in my book.

I have no doubt that you can get through this, and that in time, the demands will be less daily. Consentrate on day to day survival and find those teachable moments when you can. We really really looked for 'what else' could be causing my son's weird behavior back then, and never found anything besides: "Asynchronous Development." Luckily with time that becomes less of a challenge. LOL - and then puberty hits and all the other kids finally start acting as weird as your kid has always been, what a relief!

Love and More Love,
Grinty

Thank you all so much for your advice.

So much of it rings true and I do realize that it will hopefully get better. I find that the exhaustion just builds up and the intensity just gets too much and I have a meltdown.

I guess I just feel that I am entitled to feel worn out by it all and entitled to some time and peace to myself. If I am honest I think that there is no difference In my rection to him if he is being genuinely naughty or if I am feeling tired or irritated. So he is so used to a negative mummy that it is water off a ducks back to him.

Last night he was in a foul mood and I sent him downstairs after a major meltdown and he finally calmed down. Ten or fifteen minutes later he called me down urgently. I raced down the stairs and he smiled up at me from what he was doing. "Look mummy, I am being unannoying." I felt awful.

A lot of the problem is Asynchronous Development. There is a three or more year gap between his emotional age and his mental age which causes huge problems.

I have encouraged his reading and I hope that when it takes off I will get some time to myself.

Thank you all again. It was great to get it off my chest

Childcare can be a lifesaver, too, even if you stay in the house. A "mother's helper" can come over and play with your son, and even be pretty young (and therefore cheaper). But that might give you a little peace.

You ARE entitled to that! You really are!

Or work out trades with a friend who is also feeling harried. About that age, most people around here expect playdates to be without parents present. That's free, and might help you both ways, since you either have the house to yourself or you have a playmate for your son at your house. It works great for us!

Sounds like a couple of things at least are going on: You are not taking enough time for yourself, already mentioned by a couple of good folks on this thread. I know babysitting costs, however, and if you're a single parent sometimes heaps of money aren't just lying under every pillow...maybe a good friend would be willing to pinch hit for a couple hours a week for a few months until you get over this bump in the road.

Also it sounds like if he does not get what he wants he may throw a tantrum and you might be a bit shy about these in public. I am thinking about the shoving into line scene you described - is there something besides having a huge scene which stopped you from correcting him? Maybe you did correct him and you just didn't mention it in your post.

I have had this feeling: if I correct my child they will throw a fit and then the whole thing will just snowball and we'll have to leave, screaming, tears, having to....physically haul your child out of a building, it's all very embarrassing. Like you have no control. But, on the other hand, if you stand there and do not make the correction as needed you really don't have control. Hm. It's a tough balancing act to be sure. I think in the end laying down the rules one more time, perhaps in writing if your son is up to that, and then sticking to them could be helpful.

One other idea, don't know if there are resources like this for you: a parenting class. I am NOT implying you are doing anything but your best, but a class could have these benefits: meeting others with similar issues, taking a bit of that 'time for yourself', they might even provide some childcare while the meeting is going on. Also, a parents' group might work in these same ways - might be hard to find a good fit, but you should consider looking.
Very best of luck to you - sounds like you have a great kid with enormous amounts of curiousity and drive!!

Rachibaby, I can relate so closely to your post! At 5 my DS(now9) was intensly intense as well as competitive beyond belief. Although I am not single parenting and have a wonderful support system with my parents living in the same house and In Laws within 15 minutes, there were times I locked myself in the bathroom (DS learned how to pick the lock with a lego spear...), tuned him out when he talked nonstop and felt like a worthless mother.

As far as the competitive nature problem: after a couple years, we realized that the issue was not that he cared about being first into the car, park, movies etc., it was more that he coudn't differentiate between being first in that way and doing the best he could in activites. He was sort of hard wired to think being first meant he was doing his best. It took alot of time and quiet time talks to get him to understand that polite manners and appropriate behavior are a better way to be "First". Sadly, we still haven't managed to get away from the perfectionist attitude and need to be first but we have made alot of progress in terms of general manners and respecting each other's quiet time.

One of the reasons DS talked non stop was that he couldn't determine what was the main idea he wanted to express. To him everything was equally important. We started telling him when he was doing this that he was doing a running commentary to make him aware. Over several months with just the reminder that he was "commentating", he started to get better at summarizing and picking out the important things. He still talks constantly while he plays with legos and such, but he no longer prefaces every comment with mom, Mom, MOM!

I fully agree with the suggestions to try to find ways to take time for yourself!

Take care and good luck!

LOL, elh!!! I'm glad to know that some other little boy has picked locks using Legos!!

Yes, much of this thread rings true with me as well. DS(now 8) has moved past all of these type of behaviors, so there is hope. But the memory of it is still intense for me. The one thing that I will point out is that this might be common among gifted kids.... But it is especially intense among gifted only kids (one child per family). My DS just had so many thoughts running through his head that he needed someone to talk to. Constantly! And since my DH was at work all day, I was his constant companion. We do not turn on the tv very much in our house, but I remember plopping him down with a Winnie-the-Pooh video when I just needed a break. I used to hide in the bathroom when he was 3, 4, or 5 because of the non-stop talking, and he did interrupt my showers constantly. It was almost as if I had a kid that was velcroed to me. He refused to be more than 3 feet way from me at any given time. He did not like to be in a room alone. He would not go upstairs by himself to fetch a toy, and would prefer to wait until I was free to walk with him to get it. He really just wanted constant contact. Several other people here have posted that their children need physical contact too. My DS just needed me to sit and snuggle with him for an hour or so a day, and then he would be happier if I was away from him... as in just in the next room. The problem was that DS's clingy behavior, coupled with the intensity of a million questions an hour, caused me to retreat from him and put more space between us. That made his velcroness increase! It can be a vicious, downwardly-spiraling cycle that is hard to break.

You might try fighting fire with fire. Try to be overly huggy and "there for him" for part of the day. Then put a few boundaries for "mommy time" just afterwards. Start small by making it 5 or 10 minutes where he has to entertain himself quietly. Then try to stretch it out little by little.

The real turn-around came when he learned to read. Suddenly there were these long stretches of an hour or more when the house became completely quiet. Until he catches the reading bug, I would suggest having a secret stash of cheap toys that will keep him entertained. I would occasionally see maze books, number puzzles, etc. in the discount bin of stores and stock up. I frequently hit puzzle stores for games that required solo playtime. Or give him a tape recorder and let him record all of his ideas on it. That way he can go back and listen to his voice for added entertainment!

The worst habit to break was the 'desperately wanting my attention while on the phone.' That one took a few (okay maybe more than a few!) time-outs before he learned that I could not hear the other person if he was talking to me. I think, on more than one occasion, I told him upon hanging up that someone had just called with information on a topic that was important to him (birthdays coming up, playdates planned, visits from grandparents...), but sadly, I couldn't hear. That seemed to cure it, oddly enough.

Hope this helps. Just know that you are not alone. You are not a bad parent for feeling this way. It is completely normal... well, as normal as anything gets with a child like this. And it does get better. It is like everything else when parenting a highly gifted child... just hold on tight. This too shall pass, and then you will be worrying about other things.

p.s. I went back and looked at your original post to see if I had answered some of your questions. I do agree that asynchronous development is the key. I think that they feel that gap between where they are intellectually and where they are emotionally. Think of it as this: asynchronous development is like a source of internal friction to them. And I think it makes them feel like they don't have enough control over things in their life. They therefore seek to add as much control as they can in order to fill in the gap and make them feel more stable. The older they get, the less asynchronous they get (and the more the emotional part catches up with their ultra-fast brain.) At least that is my theory.

Rachibaby - we see similar behaviors with our DS4.5. I feel like we've been telling him every day for 2 years "please wait your turn to talk," "stop ordering and be polite" or similar. He is always interrupting and often rude.

As for alone time, do you have lego batman, lego star wars, or lego indiana jones? Those were great lifesavors for me when i needed to get some work done or when i was sick or needed some peace. I know it's not the greatest thing to recommend a video game, but the kids are using some thinking skills to figure out some of the puzzles, and fine motor, blah blah blah...

On the being first in school. I wonder if it's anything similar to my son's preschool rituals last year. He had to say "i love you mommy" each step he took on the way to the preschool door, and hug me a certain number of times. if he didn't do his familiar ritual, he'd have a tantrum. Maybe your son is just trying to have one thing the same every day (being first) as a sort of security blanket. What worked for us was finally saying to DS that he had to get all his hugs/i love you's etc done before we entered the building. I made it a rule, and it worked. Maybe it's nothing like this situation but thought i'd throw it out. I'm not sure how you could solve it - maybe there's something else he can do that is comforting that he can get out of the way before the school grounds. ?

Hi Rachibaby,
My DD4 is also very intense and energetic. She talks non stop and if we even hint that we are not totally into what she is saying she acts devistated. I was the same way as a child and luckily I married some one who can handle it most of the time and I have found several people I am close to.

We sat down as a family and talked about how peoples needs are different. Some people need to talk more than others and that is ok. We talked about strenghts and frustrations of different personalities, and that everyone in the family needs to respect each other. We didn't make it just about her.

We have designated quiet times. Like nap time 12-3 where the younger kids sleep and she has to stay in her room and entertain herself. If there is something she can't wait to share she can write it down or tell me after nap. She makes art projects dresses up her animals. Writes me notes and slides them under the door. She likes those work books someone suggested to me from this site a long time ago.

The important thing is to set boundaries. Let him know you value his ideas and thoughts. And that you will set aside time for him. And that because he values you he will wait until your out of the shower and respect your boundaries. If he does not, he will have a time out or lose a privliage, what ever you do just make the expectations clear. And make sure he knows you love him.

Clear expectations and boundaries will help him develop self worth. And help with his interactions at school or where ever he goes.

If you have reatives or family friends he can talk to that would help. Sometimes I say hunny, Id like to chat with you, but I am busy right now, why don't you call grandma and talk to her for awhile. Sometimes she gets frustrated with that, but she calls grandma and Im less adgitated when I get bombarded with questions and thoughts later.

I have found it is better to talk to DD directly about difficulties because these kids are smart and they hear everything. DD can tell when were frustrated and we don't want her to grow up feeling like something is wrong with her, but rather that everyone is different and like everyone else she has to learn ways to meet her needs in this world.