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    #250347 07/05/23 12:47 PM
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    13umm Offline OP
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    I'm not a parent and am asking about myself. For context I'm 13 years old. Is it likely for a 2e child with adhd to do well on timed tests? And is it likely for a gifted or bright child with average executive functioning and no normative deficits to feel deeply frustrated/self-loathing about executive functioning capability?

    13umm #250348 07/05/23 02:17 PM
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    (I haven't forgotten about your other questions...but I guess I'm responding to most recent first, at the moment...)

    My experience with 2e learners with ADHD is that timed tests can go either way--with the corollary that extended time accommodations can also have results that go either way. Some GT/ADHD persons do better with a little time pressure than otherwise, as it helps them to sustain focus. This tends to be the case more with shorter time frames, or with longer times subdivided into short bursts. Others function exceptionally well on timed (especially rote or overlearned) tasks because of their impulsivity/disinhibition, which reduces overthinking. Again, short tasks are more likely to benefit.

    Those who benefit from extended time often do so because they need the additional time to pull themselves back from inattention or distracted moments, with some falling in the slow cognitive tempo variant putatively associated with ADHD-primarily inattentive. Even when extended time is warranted, best practice is still generally to restrict it to +50% (and optimally, only +25%), as there is a point of not only diminishing returns, but actually decreased performance with excessive extended time.

    On your second question, it is probably more typical than not for a high-cognitive learner with average executive functions to experience frustration and disappointment (or perfectionism) regarding their own EF skills, because even when function is normatively typical, the gap between one's highest islands of development and one's lowest can feed subjective perceptions of disability. Asynchrony notoriously creates an illusion of deficits in one's personal relative weaknesses.

    And, of course, if a learner is receiving academic instruction at their appropriately-advanced academic level, the classroom environment may be placing the EF demands of a chronologically older peer on them, which means their age-appropriate EF skills are being taxed by age-inappropriate expectations. Long-time readers on this forum may remember that I have described my childhood experiences of grade acceleration as following my mother's rule of thumb, which was to place children into grades where we were about 1.5 grade-levels below our true instructional levels, to leave some cognitive energies for managing the increased EF and social reasoning demands of the destination grade. (As homeschool parents, we have accommodated this by adjusting the EF scaffolding, rather than reducing the instructional level.)


    ...pronounced like the long vowel and first letter of the alphabet...
    13umm #250354 07/06/23 06:29 AM
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    13umm Offline OP
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    I like your clinical insights. I'm homeschooled (I'm not sure if I told you this before) and grade accelerated in some areas. However, I tend to take classes with similarly aged classmates but still feel unorganized.

    I'm very bad at courses with no deadline and either finish most of my work really well at the end of the course and get a B+ (because some is unfinished) or do nothing after the first week, despite desperately wanting to.

    I do well in courses with strict deadlines or that interest me even if the latter doesn't have deadlines. However, for the latter I only finish near the end of the course. I was taking a high school chemistry course but wasn't interested in experiments. Some experiments (with overly thorough write-ups) and most sheet work was finished by the end. However, I'm not sure if just two years of public school and of brain maturation would make me as organized as most of the kids there.

    I did badly in a course with strict deadlines because I didn't have the prerequisite skills. Other than that, I sometimes forgot homework and even a test at the start of my first course from this school but luckily one's lowest quiz grade is dropped and I did well afterwards, even if I cut deadlines very close.

    The reason I care whether or not I have any normative deficits is because if I'm asynchronous, while it might be frustrating, I'll only need to organize myself as much as any other child and eventually have the adult-level executive functioning skills I want. If I have any normative deficits just organizing myself like the average child my age will never lead to the result <50th percentile EF skills as an adult and I might be below average at certain skills and need to use compensatory strategies forever.

    Last edited by 13umm; 07/06/23 07:28 AM.
    13umm #250355 07/06/23 07:06 AM
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    13umm Offline OP
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    Also I rarely make minor errors in work and am usually cautious about following directions and checking work for accuracy.

    I also tend to be worst at 3d and complex visuospatial tasks with a lot of mental rotation and simple processing speed tasks. I'm better at 2d visuospatial tasks where I can mediate with logical reasoning and complex processing speed tasks including fine motor skills or analysis instead of just reaction.

    I did notice that I did a (free, psychology today) processing speed test on ~6 hours of sleep (I only undersleep very rarely) and scored higher on than when I took it on sufficient sleep a couple days later. The time I spent microsleeping helped me not get distracted when taking the test.

    I also pace all the time and talk very quickly. I don't interrupt people often but tend to start talking right at the end of someone else's sentence.

    I have a good memory for arbitrary and contextual content and likely an average or above working memory, but am not good at remembering events without an alarm.

    Last edited by 13umm; 07/06/23 07:25 AM.
    13umm #250357 07/06/23 09:32 AM
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    I'll start with the big picture: executive functions are very much both nature and nurture. While some people are certainly more inclined to strong EF skills, anyone can improve them, and nearly all people of at least average intelligence can learn them into the functional range. So whether you are just asynchronous, or normatively delayed in EF skills, there are concrete actions that you and your instructional environment can take to improve and develop your skills to the point where they are not an obstacle to your personal life goals. So no, you are not doomed. smile (And even if you do need compensatory strategies all your life, that's not any different than all of the myopic people walking around with corrective lenses. We all use some kind of compensatory strategies--you just don't always see them, because, well, they compensate!)

    Here's an anecdotal example: one of our children probably meets the neurocognitive criteria for ADHD, but would not be diagnosable because of the absence of pathology. (We never had DC formally evaluated--but this is my field, and I have a pretty good idea of what we would have found.) By absence of pathology, I mean that DC learned skills over the years that allow unimpeded access to the major life functions (within normal limits), even without requesting accommodations from instructional or vocational settings.

    There were definitely moments along the way when parenting DC felt more labor-intensive, but we were able to pair explicit instruction in EF at home with careful selection of the educational environments DC was in. DC attended six years in two different very small private schools (the second three years was in a multigrade/multiage classroom), and then was homeschooled through high school graduation. The first three years DC was one year young for grade (early entered directly to first grade), and the second three years, two years young for nominal grade (grade skipped on the change in school), with additional subject acceleration (by year six of school, DC had grade eight content for most subjects, and algebra I for math), netting three to four years advanced vs age. Managing the EF expectations was helped in school by the multiage classroom (with a few same-age peers, which moderated expectations), and by the openness of the administration to my suggestions. Being young for grade also seems to have actually helped, as more than one teacher ascribed EF delays to DC's age, rather than some of the more pejorative ascriptions teachers sometimes make (e.g., effort, motivation, behavior), and consequently made more allowances than they might have otherwise.

    At home, I spent a lot of time working with DC and scaffolding/modeling strategies for managing attention, inhibition (impulse control), and motor restlessness. At the same time, we stressed (as I do with all of my students with this profile), that there is nothing intrinsically less-than about an ADHD-like profile. As long as you understand your own profile, you are in a position to make choices that support your weaker areas, and allow your strengths to flourish.

    When we went to homeschooling after the second school, it became even easier to adjust the environment so that both EF demands and academic instructional levels were matched to each child. DC also had a very educational experience with the first dual enrollment class, when, for the first time in four years, due dates actually meant something. It actually worked out well that this course was slightly below DC's true instructional level (quirks of the placement test at that particular college), as that left some space for focusing on the EF demands. Over the subsequent years of university, while most classes were not, a few were in DC's true zone of proximal development academically; those classes were particularly helpful in making the further development of EF skills meaningful. Participating in independent undergraduate research was also a plus, since those were good intersections of high-interest and high-EF-demand long-term projects.

    And, to make a long story short, DC now has excellent self-regulatory and organizational skills, has completed a university degree, and is pursuing post-graduate studies. DC is still the same person, with the same tendencies to talk nonstop, seek stimulation, and flit from one task or topic to another, but now with the skills to manage them (and turn them to productive uses), rather than being controlled by one's own impulses.


    ...pronounced like the long vowel and first letter of the alphabet...
    13umm #250362 07/07/23 04:57 AM
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    13umm Offline OP
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    (to your first paragraph) That's relieving.

    I also take high-interest courses like psychology below instructional level (since I've been studying it for awhile) but they tend to be mostly conversational. I guess I did do well in two courses with harsh deadlines.

    Your feedback in the other thread about an imminent WISC was helpful as well, smile

    13umm #250562 10/30/23 10:17 AM
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    Hey, iíve done a lot of reading and looking around for resources for executive functioning over the last six months for my kid. I think you might like Seth Perler and learn a lot from him. He does executive functioning coaching for kids/teens/young adults who are 2E and/or ADHD. Heís done a lot of podcast interviews and has YouTube videos, so lots of free resources.

    https://sethperler.com/

    13umm #250567 11/03/23 08:08 AM
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    13umm Offline OP
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    Thank you; I actually found Seth Perler awhile ago. Have you heard of Jessica McCabe? She has a video on twice-exceptionality that might be relevant to your child. Her other content is more general and tends to be based in scientific articles she's read.


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