Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion The price is too high!

Long dead are the days where a plucky youth could work all summer at a minimum-wage job and save enough money for the next 9 months of college tuition.

Today, food insecurity and homelessness among college students is on the rise, and has moved into the middle class: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...pread-among-college-students-study-finds

How we can expect to remain competitive in the global marketplace with these kinds of artificial barriers to success is beyond me.

My brother and SIL got their PhDs without debt. SIL was a stellar student, full scholarships and stipend through med school. Brother got grants for undergrad, and lived in a 70's Toyota van rather than pay for dorms or an apartment, took summer internships that provided housing or lived in the van and just used the gym/shower facility. <3

In my state, college tuition is the same as daycare. I noticed because I was paying cash for my classes and for daycare. Daycare was more than my tuition/books/fees!

Tuition for the nearest state university here is 30 weeks full time at $7.25/hr (minimum wage). However, many entry level retail jobs pay $9/hr, and a semester coupled be paid for in 25 weeks. If someone attends spring and fall semester, there are 21 full weeks they can work in the year. Those plus weekend job, and live at home, or unconventional housing.... I would argue it can still be done. No partying, no dating, no eating out, no cellphone, no pets, no fancy clothes, etc.

When I was taking college classes a couple years ago, in a rural low income area, I was absolutely astounded that the people who complained of financial hardship attending school were so loose with their money. Eating out, road trips, multiple pets, commuting, fancy new everything, smart phones. I came to the conclusion that financial aid for tuition helps people make stupid financial decisions and bomb their college classes.

Maybe I'm just uber-frugal, but there's often a disconnect between perception and behavior and articles like this can be myopic. Perhaps the research should have also noted if those struggling students were paying for smart phones, data plans, had purchased a laptop, tablet, or new phone in the past 2 years? Those things are luxuries and I have little sympathy who spends $200 a month on a cell phone and data plan and then complains they can't eat for 4 days in a month because they ran out of money.

The cost of attending any UC school is $17,500 before living expenses. UMASS is about the same. UVM is about $19,000. Assuming a full-time job at $10 per hour and deductions for payroll and other taxes, it would take roughly one year of full-time work to cover just those costs. And you haven't got a penny to live on yet. As in...food. And this is assuming that 100% of your after-tax income goes to savings (unlikely).

So, what are students supposed to do? They can't go to college in Arkansas because they're out of state, and out of state tuition costs are generally pretty high.

IMO, living in an old van qualifies as "homeless." I suspect the law agrees with me. If your brother chose to do that, fine. But a major point of the article Dude linked to was that college costs force many students to be homeless, which I suspect was the case with your brother. So you've actually added evidence to the point, rather than refuted it. And living in a van in a place like New England is out of the question. Because...frostbite, hypothermia, death. Living in a van in Arizona or much of California is out of the question because...heat stroke, death.

And why should people have to live in a vehicle to get a college education, anyway? Why should they have to live without a phone (BTW, which plans cost $200 a month? Metro PCS has smartphones for free to $150, plus a 100% LTE/unlimited talk plan for $40 or $50 a month)? How will you get through college without a computer? Answer: you won't. It was already essentially impossible when I was doing a PhD in the mid-90s. And you need a reasonably new computer to run the software and other things you need for your classes.

Being frugal as a student is important. Being homeless and hungry (which affects a third of all students, including your brother) is way beyond that.


I think it's important to have a bit of sympathy for people who are doing their best in a system that works against their interests. Respectfully, your post came across as being kind of smug.

I agree with Dude that the current approach to education, where K-12 schools are starved, where state universities have seen their state funding plummet, and where all the liabilities and costs are passed on to students is doing very serious damage to this nation.


(Most PhD students get scholarships. If you're paying for a Ph.D., that's not a good sign.)

All good points, Val. To which I would add - if you're cutting out the bottom of Maslow's pyramid, it's pretty hard to get to the top. Because food and shelter are necessary for survival. Even if you're scraping by through couch surfing and ramen noodles, that's going to have a negative impact on everything else you do.

It's hard to call "eating out" an unnecessary expense when you're homeless, because where are you supposed to go to dine in?

In my experience (friends with college age children and mine and my husband�s college experience): Yes. College is more expensive. But also: specifically to those who are financing it with loans or grants, they are using that money differently than students used to. Personally, in my lifetime (I am 39) college has not been something the average person can just pay for without some kind of assistance. I do not personally have negative feelings because of that. After 15 years, like a mortgage, I paid off my student loan last year. I lived in the dorm. I had a meal plan. I worked part-time for things like gas, clothes, (alcohol) etc while double majoring , participating in activities, and staying on the Dean�s list.

I know many kids now who are using their loans to get apartments. As Sanne said, they have pets, new cars, new technology, etc. These kids live in town even (major metro area) and move out into apartments. And do not work.

Certainly, these people are in for a rude awakening when the bill comes due and may experience discomfort at that point.

I am not trying to be all �down on millennials.� I am a parent and my DS is a unique, beautiful person and not some faceless part of a group. However, please take this study with a grain of salt and for the �non-random� sample it is.

Why should someone live without a phone? Because it's an unnecessary luxury! There are more people in the world who don't have access to a toilet than there are people with cell phones!

You can absolutely get through college/university without a computer. I've seen people do it. There's an immigrant population in my area and those students are using the computer labs rather than buying computers.

Homeless by empowered choice is different. My brother could have paid for housing, but he chose not to. His fiancé had just bought a house near her school (Mayo) and he had 2 years left at his school. I remember him saying that he was not going to pay for 2 places to live on a matter of principal. He was choosing to live within his means. No cell phone and no laptop.

I have attended college/university while living below the poverty line. My tuition was paid completely by grants. I owned a house, which cost less than renting, although it was still 63% of my income. I had no phone, no cell phone, no computer. Heck, my entire house only had 4 lightbulbs in it!

(I've also attending college while living in the upper class.)

But what I see is middle class kids with unrealistic expectations about how money works, no concept of sacrificing wants for needs, and a refusal to live within their means.

It is possible for a high school graduate to work full time at $9/hour (walmart starting wage), live at home or be strictly frugal, save half their money, and in 4 years they have saved enough for 4 years of state college. They'll likely be eligible for additional grants starting as a non-traditional student which would leave more money available for housing costs.

It's possible for a child to start working as soon as it's legal (age 12 here, if working in a parent's business), invest all of the earnings. If that's done at the legal max hours during a school year (not extra hours in summmer) at minimum wage ($7.25/hour) from age 12 - 16, that ends up being $38,425. Enough to pay for 4 years in-state tuition at current tuition/fees.

The cost can also be made easier by accelerating children in elementary and middle school so they may take college classes while still in high school - with the school district paying the bill. It's possible for a high school student to graduate high school and get their Associates degree at the same time, thereby cutting the cost of undergrad tuition in half.

There are also institutions which offer tuition discounts for full time employees, and people have been known to use this to their advantage to get a degree tuition-free. https://www.frugalwoods.com/2015/08/26/that-time-i-went-to-grad-school-for-free/

My son is planning to use a combination of strategies. He will start working in family business next year, but he won't receive his paycheck. It will go straight into an investment account. He plans to take AP classes and college classes in high school, although he is unlikely to earn his Associates degree. After high school, he is planning to go to the nearest 2 year state college to finish his Associates degree at the lowest tuition prices in the state and while living at home. After that he intends to transfer to the state university of his choice, which happens to be in the same city where his grandparents live. He has already negotiated living with them in exchange for lawnmowing, snowblowing, etc. My son just turned 11 and has already figured out how to get his undergrad degree without any student debt or housing cost.

I would be curious what those students say is "not enough" money for food. My family can eat well on less than 1/4 of that the USDA says is a "thrifty" food plan for my family size and children's ages, but I'm usually more lazy than frugal and spend closer to 1/2 of what the USDA says is "thrifty". https://www.cnpp.usda.gov/sites/default/files/CostofFoodFeb2018.pdf

Perhaps we've raised a generation of young adults who suffer from entitlement, lack of creativity, and lack of resourcefulness?

Sanne, I don’t know what assumptions you’re making for investment rates of return in high school, but assuming a risk averse profile designed to preserve capital and offset inflation, you’re proposing that a child work 20 hours per week starting at age 12 (almost 3 hours per day, on average).

I don’t intend any disrespect with this comment, but if a child is in a traditional school for ~7 hours per day, is working 3 hours per day, has 1-2 hours of homework, needs an hour a day of exercise to remain healthy (potentially overlaps with school/transit), needs to perform basic self care, and likely has chores at home (meal preparation and cleaning), that’s at least 13 hours a day taken up with necessary activities. At that age, children need 9-10 hours of sleep. Already, we’re at 22-23 hours of the day assigned.

With a maximum of 1-2 hours left, when is the child expected to develop friendships, build extra-curricular skills, interact with family, develop outside interests, or just relax? In particular, given that low income students are likely unable to participate in activities not offered outside the public school umbrella due to affordability, and that they will face barriers to access of programs due to a higher likelihood of parental low income, lack of access to efficient transit, absent parents due to more likely reliance on part-time shift work, I find it difficult to believe that these students will have much recourse to extra curriculars.

I also have difficulty understanding how living at home and not dating due to affordability during university years, and spending most free time working, is at all supportive of developing the EQ component of adult training. Forestalling social development and relationships because there is no time for it seems a very expensive trade-off in terms of long-term adult development, even after considering the cost of carrying some debt. I also question whether most students have the requisite executive function skills at the ages you’ve laid out to even implement this plan. You are scaffolding development of these skills with your son; I would posit that the majority of low income parents will not (either due to time or ability constraints).

There is also the question of mental health, and whether the habits you suggest inculcating (and the extent to which they are practiced) are consistent with good mental health and life satisfaction in the long run, and could prove more professionally and personally costly than a middle-way approach that trades off some debt for early years leisure.

I will also suggest that your embedded assumptions presume a more intellectually capable student than is reasonable for general application. The average university bound student is not PG, and will require more time on task to master the material in high school and post-secondary studies, and potentially not be able to save money on acceleration.

I will also point out that, in your brother’s case, it sounds like he had access to a home paid for by his fiancé. So he was actually consuming far more than you’re portraying; the cost was just shifted onto her. The assumption of housing stability—and for free—is out of the question for a lot of students.

Truisms:
1) Not all kids should go to college.
2) There are non-college paths to careers, financial stability.
3) College loans are generally not a good deal.
4) A country can remain competitive in the global marketplace without all of its citizens being college-educated.
5) The US economy, culture, society allow for upward mobility, however for most people this takes considerable effort and sacrifice.

There are many old threads on these topics.

The above statements do not attempt to indicate which kids should go to college, how much effort/sacrifice is ideal for cultivating grit, perseverance, resilience, etc.

The decades of tomes on How College Affects Students are worth a look.

Most worthwhile things are difficult to achieve; Removing the difficulty and the winnowing process may also remove the value of the achievement.

I do agree that the price of college tuition has skyrocketed, and is too high.
I do agree that some of the building/construction on college campuses does not attract those who wish to invest themselves in learning... these include luxuries such as aquatic centers which resemble waterparks, with waterslides.
Based on my observation and experience, I also agree that there is a segment of the college student population which believes that "the college experience" must include beer, parties, unwed sex, Spring break in warm or tropical locations, fashions worthy of magazine covers to post on social media, etc. These kids may look with sneering condescension on those who make and keep a budget, turn down invitations to meet up for pizza and beer so that their food budget lasts all month, wear the same jeans all through college, and pick up every extra shift at work.

The article itself, in my opinion, is divisive and paints the college experience with a broad brush, whereas in reality there are many trends. Some may say that the study could be vastly improved by tracking actual student spending, and student budgetary practices (whether they make and keep a budget)... as this may help to separate the various trends and address each in a thoughtful manner.

While sanne reported knowing of a person who made it through college in part by living in a van, this person did not seem to see himself as a downtrodden victim for his sacrifices but rather as a victor, for accepting and working through the sacrifices and accomplishing the goal. This calls to mind the closing line of the article, "... these people have clearly exhibited a resilience that almost any employer would benefit from."

I see this as well. You are not alone in your observations.

I see this as well. There may be an increasing number of young people who disdain the striving, effort, work ethic, struggle, and sacrifice... yet expect the rewards of "the American Dream."

Technology glitch lost my response to acquinas. I will try again more succinctly.

1) I didn't not calculate any interest or return on investment in my numbers.
2) Schedule nesting is a necessary time management technique. Social interaction happens in the workplace and at school and friendships may be developed there, for example
3) Perhaps the concept of a happy childhood is why young adults struggle so much when they transition to independence?
4) I mentioned advanced students because it's relevant to this audience/forum, but similar programs exist for at-risk students also. In my state, at-risk students can attend 2 year technical college in place of the last 2 years of high school so they may graduate high school with marketable skills.
5) My brother was attending a university in a different state than where his fiancé owned a house.

Indigo's interpretation is correct, he was not seeing himself as a victim of circumstance, and he was capable of paying for traditional housing but chose not to. He has gone on to adopt a debt-free lifestyle.