Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion College as a luxury good

Just for fun, here's a list of "The 25 Most Amazing Campus Student Recreation Centers". They include luxuries such as water parks, waterslides, lazy rivers, rock climbing walls.

This is how the US New & World Reports classifies schools. And i know there is some governing body that approves college names. I know that the school my DD attends was "granted" university status about 15 years ago when they starting giving Masters degrees. I assume it's the accreditation board that grants this status.

OK looking up the usnew rankings, their definition is a little less strict than I said. But the idea is the same. They list colleges/universities in 4 categories.
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings

The point is it's confusing. You can get a BA (4 yrs) degree from both a college and university. And those of us in the U.S. use the term in a confusing manner.

There are a few school experimenting with traditional 4 year BA, then graduated school system. UPenn has a 6/7 year Medical School program and from what I know it's highly competitive to get in. One admitted into the program students start right away after H.S. and go straight to an intensive 2/3 year 'undergraduate' pre-med classes without all of the 'general ed coursework'. As long as you keep above a certain GPA you are then automatically transferred to their medical school when these pre-reqs are finished. Don't know why more schools don't do this the requirements for pre-med don't take 4 years particularly for kids who take a large number of AP's during H.S.

I'm skeptical of this claim. I started college in the 80s. The cost of a year at my private seven-sisters college went from 10K the year before I started to 20K the year I graduated. So it doubled in five years.

Every year, they told us that "tuition doesn't begin to cover the cost of your education." They've been repeating that line ever since. With the exception of the last couple of years or so, tuition increases have risen at more or way more than the cost of inflation, so I have a lot of trouble accepting that tuition hasn't caught up with actual costs yet.

What I suspect is really going on is that the "whole cost of your education" claim is referring to the costs of the new dorms, the new rec center (with lazy river!), the new horsey barn, and all those shiny new research buildings. As for those buildings, undergraduates may or may not even enter them during their four years, much less make use of them beyond a possible summer gig or a fourth-year project.

That and the colleges are gouging parents, and in many cases, students through non-dischargeable-even-in-death student loans. In other words, they raise tuition because they can.

So tuition at MIT is $43,720. If a student takes 8 classes in a year (4 per semester), this means that each class costs roughly $5,500 per student, or $110,000 for 20 students. I have trouble believing that even a course in cell culture or molecular biology could cost that much, let alone general chemistry or...a math class.

I agree with you that you can probably get as good an education at many state schools as BU for a lot less price. But then I have a bias against BU as I had a sibling who attended BU 30 years ago who doesn't look at it fondly. But I do know schools like BU, NYU, USC have been trying to become more selective and give the Ivy's a run for their money. I do know this reputation hinges on the fact that they attract students with higher stats.

On the other hand many of the top state school including ones here in CA are becoming ALMOST as expensive as some private schools. They have state of the art recreation centers that have been funding by additional student "fees" making the schools more expensive. And from what I know it isn't possible to at most UC's to get a FULL MERIT scholarship. Instead the state gives top students some scholarships plus perks like early class registration, admission to 'honors' programs and classes, and special dorms. So if your really in the middle income area where you can't afford the state tuition but make too much to qualify for most financial aide AND you are a top student financially you are better off going to a private school that will give you a full ride.

You would finish highschool at 17 to q8 but generally be 18 when you started training. Law and Engineering are four years, vet is 5 years, medicine is about 7 but the last two so are paid on the job training. Admission to such courses bases on your first year results and I think now a days an interview.

Eta. This is in NZ. And yes I know the movies aren't accurate but I get the impression that there is a lot more hand holding in a US college. A NZ first year lecture could have more than 300 students. Lecturers come in, talk for 50 minutes and walk out. There are exceptions but most first year classes have little interaction and if you don't take responsibility you fail (and a lot of bright kids, away from home for the first time and just legally able to drink di fail).

I think those numbers come from taking the entire school budget (maybe subtracting the research grants), and dividing it among the students. There is certainly a case to be made that having lab research on campus is valuable to the students, but I don't know that it really makes sense to attribute all the costs to them.

That said, MIT is indeed its own unique and singular place, and it's not really "just as good" to just go there for grad school. But I think it is a luxury good. A Yugo will get you to work just as well, but you'll enjoy the ride more in the Lexus. You might get the same job after college if you go to BU, but you'll enjoy college more at MIT (if you're a person who ought to go to MIT). I think you'll also learn better habits of thought at MIT that will serve you better in the years afterward, but that's not a statement I can prove.

No hand-holding in the state flagship I went. I hardly showed up to any of my lecture-hall classes during the first 2 years (or 3) and no one ever noticed

This will vary completely depending on which college or university you attend. Large state universities are like this (like UC Berkeley, UT and other schools with enormous undergrad populations). Those schools, it is not uncommon for undergrads to be taught by TAs rather than professors.

Many smaller liberal arts colleges have smaller classes - the one I attended had probably 30-40 students for the large intro classes but for the more advanced courses like some of the STEM classes and the more obscure classes, the class could range from 12 to even as few as 5-6 students. However, even in these smaller schools, there is not as much "hand-holding" as people may think - it was a shock for some of my classmates who were so used to have parents and guidance counselors monitor their progress all semester to suddenly have to realize that for some classes, their *whole* grade depends on midterm paper/final and final paper and/or exam (and some classes had both final paper and exam). But the smaller liberal arts schools such as the one I attended was focused more on teaching than research (at least when I attended) so if you wanted to really get into a subject, the professors were eager to support your curiousity. I remember many times when my favorite CS teacher would randomly call a quick "class" after hours, when he saw a few of us confused over some materials he had presented. But I would not call that hand holding but rather being in an environment that engages with the students.

It really depends on which school you pick.

To piggyback upon notnafnaf's post, also-- it is more than possible at a larger college/uni to have all of those things happen in different courses/departments.

DD is at a large state flagship. She is in the much-smaller Honors College there, where the enrollment is about 4-6% that of the larger institution. She has lecture courses with 400+ students in them, in which a student has to WORK to make themselves known even to the TA's in the class, never mind the instructor.

The thing is, she knows that such personal interaction is key to being given the benefit of the doubt-- ever-- and also to getting insider information regarding upcoming assignments, tips about what the instructor is thinking re: certain assignments, etc. The unwritten stuff that matters.

On the other end of that extreme, she also has some small (<12 student) seminar/discussion classes where class participation is a HUGE portion of the student grade, since it's the engine of learning for everyone taking the course. I don't consider that hand-holding, really-- almost more like nowhere-to-hide. LOL.

She wasn't that shocked by having so much riding on just a few assessments-- but it is clear that some of her classmates have been. Some of them have been downright stunned by the level of difficulty and lack of gentle coaching from instructors, never mind the lack of "second chances" at things.

One of the only things that she has found maddening is a lack of accountability from faculty-- far from there being no hand-holding (except on demand, and as noted, DD goes to pretty great lengths to have her professors KNOW her), good luck even knowing what your grade is in a class prior to the final exam. DD has had courses where she didn't have any information on her course performance between the second week and the posting of final grades. Not kidding. Faculty also give assignments with MADDENINGLY short turn-around times-- and students are expected to basically be plugged in and nervously checking-checking-checking like rabid squirrels with ADD, I guess-- because if they don't, they will fail to notice that there is now a 5 page essay due in 24 hours. (I'm not actually exaggerating that by much-- 4 pages with citations, and 40 hours' notice).

College is now VERY much more hostile toward non-traditional, disabled, and older students, from what I've seen. The notion that students are "always on" and the assumption that they live ON CAMPUS-- is a huge disadvantage to those who are commuters, who must work, or have family caregiving in the picture. I truly don't know how those students have enough hours in the day now, because the ground is constantly shifting under them like quicksand.

There is also a patchwork of different electronic notification systems in play-- so some faculty use one, some use another, some prefer nothing at all and others use e-mail exclusively, etc. For DD's six classes this term, she has a variety of very different styles to contend with there, and no fewer than FIVE separate websites to check a minimum of five to six time daily to keep on top of it all.

I mention that because I thought that I was pretty well in tune with what the executive demands of the environment were like-- I had no idea how much more complex it was than when I was in the classroom. Be warned, those who have kids headed toward early matriculation-- executive function needs to be VERY good indeed. I still have to scaffold this, and the other home-town kids that we know? Yeah, their parents help with scheduling weekly, too-- it's just too much, too scattered for most of them otherwise. It's very fragmented now.

I think that faculty all (sort of) have to produce something akin to a syllabus-- though she has had a few that don't really do that, either. But there are no restrictions on how often they have to update student grades, how long they have before returning work to students, etc. This is quite alien to me-- never, never would I have been allowed to do to my students what DD's professors seem to expect her to put up with. It's outrageous, IMO.

At her state flagship, I am very pleased to say that there is little hand-holding, and even less grade inflation. Not working hard is a route to poor grades. Period. The retention rate is about 80% from beginning of freshman year to sophomore fall, which is probably as it should be.

Other than that-- what Val said. Oh-- one more thing. DD's "full tuition" scholarship still leaves us shelling out about 3-4K annually in additional "fees" and such, and she doesn't even live on campus. If she did, we'd also be writing checks for 12-16K every year. What this means is that her tuition is effectively about 14K annually.

Now, sure-- that is a fraction of the cost of an institution like BU, MIT, or HMC. Sure. But it is definitely not what most middle class families will find "affordable."

It angers me that so much of that cost is going toward things that seem to me to be quite unrelated to the academic mission. No, a fancy climbing wall and a 24 hour sushi bar are not "essential" campus amenities, and I'm tired of being forced to support that stuff. Supporting the library? Fine. Good, even. A new "recreation center" on campus? Uhhh- no.