Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion What would you ask Carol Dweck?

All of you have made so many great points.

One of my additional concerns about the growth mindset is the assumption that either you have it or you don't. That's where the dichotomy comes in. It's just a little too simplistic in how it has been tossed about in the media. And it incidentally fuels more misunderstanding about gifted kids.

I replied to that highly controversial piece by Jo Boaler on the new thread, Recommendations for math teachers, and will repeat the quote from the mindset book here: mindset states, in part:

Originally Posted by mindset, page 50:

The growth mindset is the belief that abilities can be cultivated. But it doesn't tell you how much change is possible or how long change will take.

So we need people to have a growth mindset about the growth mindset. Break out the calculus!

Err...well, the first point in that presentation claims that "everyone can learn math to the highest levels." I find that statement offensive. Everyone most certainly cannot learn complex analysis, tensor calculus, or, even harder (!) dream up new methods for integrating complex mathematical expressions and then prove them rigorously. Claiming that anyone can do this is wishful thinking at best and can be harmful. The presentation also claims that being born with a "math brain" is a "damaging myth," which is insulting to people who clearly have talent for mathematics.

I have trouble understanding why Americans are so loathe to face the reality that some people are just smarter than others.

Believing in yourself is important, but self-confidence is effectively worthless unless accompanied by a solid understanding of your limitations.

Perhaps the secret to learning math "to the highest levels" is the way it's taught. Have you read The Joy of X by Steven Strogatz? It presents often hard-to-understand concepts in a such a way to make accessible some of math's "most compelling and far-reaching ideas" (quote from the book).

The article seems to be aimed at high school and middle school teachers, so I think mentally, I took that sentence to mean "everyone can learn math to the highest levels (taught in high schools)." I think that modified like that, it actually is true, or close enough to true. Even people with limited talent for mathematics can probably be taught basic calculus, given enough time and the right methods. I don't think you need a "math brain" to learn those topics. You don't need a "writing brain" to be able to learn honors English in high school, either, though few students have (or need) what it takes to become professional writers, or even to succeed as college English majors.

This statement seems to me to be just as offensive as the one you took offense to. There's no need to characterize a particular area of muddy thinking as uniquely American. Plenty of Americans disagree (including you, going by your location), and plenty of non-Americans would go along with it.

I also took this article as aimed at secondary school teachers. Without having to agree with every assertion, I think it has value for them, in terms of promoting more positive attitudes toward math development. And, anecdotally, I have seen some pretty amazing math growth in quite low-functioning students, when taught by a positive, skilled, and relentless math teacher. Including individuals with FSIQs in the 60s who were able to obtain passing scores in algebra I and geometry on state-mandated high school exit exams. Perhaps not coincidentally, the two most effective math teachers I have known were both raised and educated outside of the USA, in cultures with long histories of believing that math (at least high school math) both should be rigorously-taught to, and is within the reach of, all motivated and industrious students.

(Actually, both came from communities where it was not unusual for high school students to have had more advanced math than the average USA high school math teacher has had. But that's another story.)

Algebra1, geometry, and basic calculus are a long way from the highest levels of math. You or ash or others may interpret that to mean "in high schools," but even calculus 1 isn't the highest level of mathematics taught in many high schools. Many teach topics like differential equations and multivariable calculus.

Also, just because you interpret the statement as meaning "in high schools," doesn't mean that high school kids will understand it the same way. This is what makes statements like that so potentially damaging. Remember also that these ideas are surrounded by people saying that everyone can go to college or everyone can be president or everyone can become an engineer. These ideas are simply not true, and it's cruel to tell children that they are.

This way of thinking may not be uniquely American, but it is primarily an American phenomenon.

Reading about math for pleasure and enlightenment is good, and I have bought such books for my eldest son. But when a math major studies a topic he or she needs to do calculations and understand proofs of the major theorems, which is much more difficult than reading a popular math book.

Indeed.

Here is a new thread: When Success Leads to Failure.