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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 337
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 337 |
There are many jobs out there from Engineer, Computer Programmer, research scientist ... Shoot, in many of those fields companies will provide high-EF colleagues whose sole job it is to keep track of the moving parts and mundane details that detract from coding, engineering, or research time. Which is how I have a career. On the other hand to be a good teacher/administrator in a regular b&m school requires a lot of organization & good ef skills. Thus the people teaching our kids see organization as a very important skill because they themselves would be lost without it. This is astute. Really, really useful point.
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,498
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,498 |
Warning: soapbox..... This is also why I get so frustrated by teachers and family members who constantly dismiss DS's learning needs by insisting that "He MUST learn to get along in the real world." Well, actually, mostly, no. I am quite confident that the moment he is allowed to escape his public school box, he will put himself into a reality of his own choosing - and it will NOT involve spending all day every day trapped in a room with people with whom he has no shared interests, listening to a one-way drone of highly linear, repetitive, shallow and slow-moving information about things he knew years ago and don't interest him even vaguely. Your reality, lady, not his. Actually, I disagree: this idea is framed here in too extreme a way to be true to my experience. It's fun to think that the world will just make a path for geniuses, but I've seen brilliant people flame out because they can't organize themselves. (Some of these are people who go to grad school but spend much too long there because they can't get it together to write consistently, people who are considered by their colleagues to be a pain in the neck because they don't contribute practically to the running of the lab, and so forth.) I do not consider the acquisition of EF skills a waste of time at all. The idea that the person should spend time in an otherwise inappropriate learning environment to get EF skills is of course ridiculous. But it is a separate issue from learning the EF skills. As to Bostonian: one may be born with a particular set of predispositions for EF, but one can learn strategies for managing. What you're born with is not who you are in this regard.
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,390
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Joined: Feb 2012
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Some of these are people who go to grad school but spend much too long there because they can't get it together to write consistently. Hey! I resemble that remark!  I do agree that teachers sometimes overvalue organization because it is very important to their jobs. But our DCs still need to learn enough organizational skills to function within an organization, feed themselves, and pay the rent on time.
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 599
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 599 |
I think one problem they (teachers/schools) have is doing school wide or classroom wide systems with no flexibility for individual differences. Looking at you 3 inch white binder required by middle school until I pitched a fit after the major disaster when son dropped it in the rain (not the first time he had dropped it and everything spilled out).
I think teaching systems for managing organization is fine if you teach a main system but provide options...
Like you will need to keep a calendar/agenda...There are several ways to do it....app on your phone/tablet, agenda that the school provides, or some sort of adapted alternative that you come up with. Keeping the information in an organized way is non negotiable, how you do it is your choice. Not sure try each way for two weeks and then decide...
And just in case anyone is wondering...science is green, math is blue, reading language arts is red, history is purple, black (or could be a picture folder like a kitty or super hero) is a folder for miscellaneous notes to and from school like flyers and forms and newsletters, Orange is foreign language and yellow is elective..I don't know why but those are the right colors and. Don't try to convince me otherwise!
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,489
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Well, IMO, children that are fortunate enough to have adults around them to teach them coping skills and scaffold their school experience and "keep them in the game" can grow into successful adults (like those giving excellent advice on this forum). Unfortunately, I've watched several PG and HG people grow up in families that either did not provide this kind of support or it did not work for them. Many went down a different path. The path goes something like 1) poor grades in school due to not turning in work or not fulfilling requirements 2) school counselor interprets this as "bright, but troubled" or "not really gifted" 3) student guided to remedial classes resulting in even greater boredom and cycles back to step 1 until the end of high school 4) student is always the smartest in the room, while both bored and disinterested, and displays unwavering snarky cynicism to one and all (thus alienating teachers and students alike) 5) student does not go to college because school is "stupid" and "pointless" 6) adult works series of low income jobs, gets fired often, plays a lot of video games, watches tons of movies, or reads a lot of books, and is bitterly dissatisfied with their life. Throw in some drugs or alcohol to blunt the pain and you get a serious mess. A variation on this theme is going to college and underachieving there due to a lack of EF and then proceeding to step 6.
Ouch. Sorry to be so negative, but sadly, I've known quite a few people who are now in their 40's-60's who've gone this route. There probably are people who do get it together later in life, but my life path has not intersected with theirs. A few EF challenged gifted adults I've known have life changing experiences after high school like joining the military, marrying a super organized, super involved spouse, or some other major event that provides or requires external organization and the opportunity to learn how to make it internal. These events seemed to occur when they were between 18 and 25.
This, to me, is why it is so important to help our gifted kiddos acquire the EF skills to "stay in the game" and have the chance to find that special situation that works for them. I agree with this to some extent. This is really one of the biggest fears I've had for my DS. On the other hand there is some "middle ground". Not all low EF kiddo's are going to go down that path. And not all of these kids are "low" EF it's just their weakest point, they are average in EF but since they are gifted teachers & parents expect above grade/age level independence because they are so "bright". Wouldn't it be nice if gifted but lower EF kids didn't decide they were stupid after having troubles keeping up with those with high organizational skills and therefore didn't go down this spiral. Working on EF skills with these kids is a good idea. They will need it, can't keep a job if you don't show up on time. But it does seem realistic to realize that we aren't going to turn them into super organized & efficient but we can help them become into good, competent and interesting adults. A combination of accommodations and remediation seems like it's more likely to work in the long run. The situation with many gifted kids isn't that their EF is very low, but rather not on par with the rest of their IQ. Teachers/schools don't always recognize that just because you are gifted intellectually you might not be average in learning organizational skills. My point is that the intense organizational needed to keep track of 6-8 classes at once skills needed for B&M junior & high schools aren't necessary the skills they kids will need in a job. But they are quite likely to be ones needed to get through university and get that job. There are alternatives particularly at the university level. There are universities that teacher one subject at a time, for one month rather than the traditional semester system. Most of the local universities here in CA run on a quarter system (3 quarters make a normal school year) and thus students take 3-4 classes per quarter rather than 4-6 per semester. My last point is I've seen kids who were scaffold and taught coping skills end up with high anxiety who have had bumps in the road once they are really on their own. Scaffolding students into a situation that can't cope with on their own is it's own recipe for disaster.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,489
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,489 |
I think one problem they (teachers/schools) have is doing school wide or classroom wide systems with no flexibility for individual differences. Looking at you 3 inch white binder required by middle school until I pitched a fit after the major disaster when son dropped it in the rain (not the first time he had dropped it and everything spilled out).
I think teaching systems for managing organization is fine if you teach a main system but provide options...
Like you will need to keep a calendar/agenda...There are several ways to do it....app on your phone/tablet, agenda that the school provides, or some sort of adapted alternative that you come up with. Keeping the information in an organized way is non negotiable, how you do it is your choice. Not sure try each way for two weeks and then decide...
And just in case anyone is wondering...science is green, math is blue, reading language arts is red, history is purple, black (or could be a picture folder like a kitty or super hero) is a folder for miscellaneous notes to and from school like flyers and forms and newsletters, Orange is foreign language and yellow is elective..I don't know why but those are the right colors and. Don't try to convince me otherwise! My pet peeve was our school organizer that was "recommended' the kids purchase in junior/high school. Until I got a good look at it.. It was the worst organizer EVER. Four times as big as needed, lots of junk on sidebars including ads, pages of extra information my kids never looked at. Hard to find the page for the current day/week. And since it was so big, a pain to bring everywhere and have available when you needed it. I don't know how anyone used that organizer effectively. Started buying my kids an inexpensive & plain planner instead.
Last edited by bluemagic; 07/14/15 06:09 PM.
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 599
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 599 |
I think one problem they (teachers/schools) have is doing school wide or classroom wide systems with no flexibility for individual differences. Looking at you 3 inch white binder required by middle school until I pitched a fit after the major disaster when son dropped it in the rain (not the first time he had dropped it and everything spilled out).
I think teaching systems for managing organization is fine if you teach a main system but provide options...
Like you will need to keep a calendar/agenda...There are several ways to do it....app on your phone/tablet, agenda that the school provides, or some sort of adapted alternative that you come up with. Keeping the information in an organized way is non negotiable, how you do it is your choice. Not sure try each way for two weeks and then decide...
And just in case anyone is wondering...science is green, math is blue, reading language arts is red, history is purple, black (or could be a picture folder like a kitty or super hero) is a folder for miscellaneous notes to and from school like flyers and forms and newsletters, Orange is foreign language and yellow is elective..I don't know why but those are the right colors and. Don't try to convince me otherwise! My pet peeve was our school organizer that was "recommended' the kids purchase in junior/high school. Until I got a good look at it.. It was the worst organizer EVER. Four times as big as needed, lots of junk on sidebars including ads, pages of extra information my kids never looked at. Hard to find the page for the current day/week. And since it was so big, a pain to bring everywhere and have available when you needed it. I don't know how anyone used that organizer effectively. Started buying my kids an inexpensive & plain planner instead. One year I designed and produced a unique planner for my son for those very reasons and because there wasn't enough space to write the info they wanted written down. I printed it out and had it spiral bound at staples. I was going to market it to special Ed markets.
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Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 37
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OP
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Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 37 |
Such interesting replies!
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Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 647
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Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 647 |
I'm grappling (obsessing) w this issue right now. For my DS, the biggest hurdle isn't the organizational system per se, but how to teach him to remove assignments from the binder and place them wherever they go to be graded.
I know others have had the "completes but doesn't turn in" problem. Any advice? Because I'm not there to help in that (maddening) instance.
As for EF in general--I agree it's really important for any person to develop these skills to be functional. A psych I spoke with said that anxiety can elevate neurotransmitters (think: procrastination, working under deadline pressure), in effect the brain creates its own stimulant. But it comes at a great emotional cost and the product suffers. I see this in my own life--but with my son, anxiety tends to shut him down completely.
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,498
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,498 |
I'm grappling (obsessing) w this issue right now. For my DS, the biggest hurdle isn't the organizational system per se, but how to teach him to remove assignments from the binder and place them wherever they go to be graded.
I know others have had the "completes but doesn't turn in" problem. Any advice? You can put it into the 504/IEP that he scan/email work immediately upon completion. A regular check of the online gradebook with counselor or special ed staff as backup. And possibly the accommodation that lateness not count against, though I have mixed feelings about that one.
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