Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Not gifted only anxiety?

Sounds like aeh is referring to the classical Method of Loci...

Yes. And other imagery methods.

DD scored in the average range on the memory tests he gave her (for instance learning a list and then needing to recall it later)....so I'm not sure what to make of it. Her working memory on the WISC was 96th percentile but that seems to be testing more immediate memory and manipulating information rather than learning something and then needing to recall it. Of course, it's possible that for a gifted kid "average" on a memory test is really not good. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

aeh - thanks for the additional info. And I don't have Beery-B subscores.

We just had the IEP eligibility meeting and found DD to be eligible based on her anxiety behaviors. We have an IEP development meeting next week. They're focusing on the behavior but I want them to get at the root; what is the problem with writing? We were told we can ask for more investigation at the next meeting.

They seem to say that she's okay with respect to LD as she's performing at or above grade level. However, her teacher and I said she tries to do the minimal amount of actual writing and her teach says she goes through really clever means to write less. For example, in a math problem where she is supposed to write out how she figured out the problem, she just wrote another equation. In another case, she is supposed to write the assignment of the day in her planner by copying what the teacher put on the board. DD paraphrases the assignment down to one word and thus reduced the amount of writing. Her teacher noted that the DRA just administered (results not in yet) will score her lower than her actual comprehension since DD had to give answers in writing.

Between her behavior around writing assignments (it triggered big "freak-outs" pre-medication and difficulty while on medication), what you all have helped me with interpreting tests, and how much I know goes on in her head (regardless of how messy that closet is, I think there's something about writing that is inhibiting her, frustrating her and contributing to her distorted view of her abilitities.

I am going to take notes and look at information before our IEP meeting next week. Given that she'll have an IEP, she's probably going to the full-time gifted program she was accepted to.

black cat - if you get any insight with your DD, let me know as I'm trying to figure stuff out too.

thanks again!

Is your sense that the anxiety leads to the writing difficulty, or that the writing difficulty triggers the anxiety?

We have it going in both directions in this house. For kid 1, ultimately a diagnosis of dyslexia (with slightly larger splits in writing + spelling vs other verbal abilities) led to services to address the underlying phonological processing issues, which removed a lot of roadblocks in the writing, and therefore relieved a lot of the school-based anxiety. For kid 2, we're addressing *both* underlying phonological weaknesses as well as language difficulties (as exposed by a language evaluation from a SLP). This has so far facilitated an order of magnitude increase in writing output.

For us, these assessments were based on multiple evaluations of phonological processing (from WIAT/WJ, CTOPP, and AIMSWeb as well as specific OG testing-CORE?) and metalinguistics evaluation from a SLP. Neither kid really showed clear difficulties in overall phonological awareness, but certain subtests were clear outliers.

Our district counts a split in scores of more than 22 points as qualifying for intervention services, with no requirement that the student be below grade level.

Basically what the neuropsych said is that her problems with writing are due to executive functioning issues and ADHD. It's not "just" ADHD. So she has problems planning what to write, organizing her thoughts, getting it down on the paper. She is slightly better if someone scribes for her or if she types, but not much. If you ask her to tell a story, she has problems even with that and will resist. But her speech/language is very articulate and she has no problem with communicating her thoughts verbally. She has some characteristics of dysgraphia, but her motor skills seem fine. Her handwriting is generally very neat (whereas my DS has handwriting that looks like chicken scratches and I think someone could more convincingly make the argument that he has motor dysgraphia). Basically what the neuropsych said is that she needs a lot of scaffolding with writing. She needs to use a template, she needs help with planning, etc.

She also resists copying anything, doesn't like to show work for math, doesn't like to take notes. I think all of this is also related to EF and slow processing. Her copy speed/fluency is somewhat delayed for her age (the number of words she can copy per minute). You can find copy speed tests online and try giving them to her (if you can't find it let me know, I can find it). You can also google CBM written expression problems/writing fluency where you give her a starter sentence/phrase and then time her and see how she falls in terms of norms. DD tends to sit there blankly, says she has no idea what to write, and comes out a couple grade levels delayed despite having solidly average writing scores on tests like the WIAT/WJ-ACH and TOWL-4 contrived writing. She completely bombed spontanteous writing on the TOWL where she had to look at a picture and write a "story". She didn't even write 40 words in 15 min. which is similar to what I saw on the CBM probes I gave her at home. Of course, the school never cared about any of my writing samples. The one classroom writing sample they found, she wrote 2 sentences, but those two sentences, I guess, were sophisticated sentences (probably because her VCI is 99th percentile). It's a case of giftedness masking a disability. She is also able to "cover up" her ADHD symptoms pretty well when she wants to, making me look crazy. She did great on the CCPT (computerized test for ADHD) so it's hard to tell how much of her issue is ADHD and how much of it is processing issues. I know that stimulant medication helps her though.

You may find your dd stuck in a bit of a middle-ground-black-hole here. There is a difference between having what is considered an LD by the school (which means qualifying because you meet a certain set of very low-performing-high-impact scores) and having a challenge that impacts your ability to perform to full ability in school as well as potentially impacting the student outside of school. If she does fall into this in-between land - doesn't qualify for services for the LD but does in fact have a challenge, you'll still need to do as much as you can either through outside help or by advocating and supporting her in her schoolwork to help her find her way through the challenges.

I don't think you're really truly stuck in that hole in a way that you aren't going to get support from the school - yet. Keep advocating and keep looking for understanding. Definitely ask for clarification/testing re the writing challenges at your IEP development meeting.


FWIW, while these may look clever, they might also be screaming "I can't write" or "something about writing is difficult" and they might really be all that she can do.


When you are advocating, remember to compare this to what other students are doing and are capable of doing. There are signals here that are important - she seems to be lagging in terms of skills she will need now and in future grades.


I think you can administer the DRA using different books (I might be wrong). Or that the books change as you move up in levels. I'd ask the teacher if she could possibly test your dd again, maybe starting at a higher level, and scribe her responses. If the teacher doesn't have time to do this, request this at the IEP meeting. I'd also ask for the TOWL (Test of Written Langauge) at the IEP meeting.


I'd also request a Speech Language eval for expressive language - I'll explain a bit below under blackcap's post. You might not get it, but it's worth requesting.

It's also possible (maybe likely) that what will happen at the IEP development meeting is that since she's qualified, the school staff will tell you they can offer certain goals/services based on the teacher's notes about copying and math answers etc. That's all good, but what you really need to know is the *why* so that instruction/remediation/accommodations can be appropriately targeted. If they are resistant to further testing, let them know this is *why* testing is important. You don't want to spend valuable school resources attempting to help when what is being tried isn't going to work because it's not aimed at the correct target. Hope that makes sense!

Best wishes,

polarbear

Blackcat has most likely already heard this from me 900 times, but I'll repost it once again here for people who are new to the forum - the descriptions of blackcat's dd's challenges above are very very very similar to the challenges my ds experienced (still experiences in to a certain degree). These were, for my ds, related to expressive language, and the very very very *best* therapy/help we found to address these challenges was speech therapy for expressive language.

polarbear

First, I apologize for my horrible grammar. The only thing I can say is I always found writing difficult as well but I can't put my finger on it. However, it's is more likely because I'm being emotional.
Second, I don't seem to be able to use the quote function well from my iPad.

So, geofizz's question on anxiety causing writing issues or writing issues causing anxiety. I would say she is in/was in a spiral. I believe writing was the major trigger for her anxiety but became a self-fulfilling prophecy. She would get worked up with prospect of writing and she seized up to a pioint of being in able to write. This anxiety built up so high, she was struggling to function in everything but reading (reading became a place of soothing, she'd open to a random page and read). She feels like she can't do things, feels that she's the slowest learner, and feels that she's the worst in math. She also ice skates and it was a place where she felt confident in December ("I know I can do it even when it's hard" vs not the case at school) and her freak outs didn't happen on the ice. As her anxiety escalated to where "school DD" showed up at the rink rather than "skater DD". It just breaks my heart that she got in such a state.

Now that she's on meds, she is coping much better, interacting with classmates and working hard on her skating. However, she still avoids writing, still thinks she's not a good learner. As a side note, the WISC-IV was administered pre-medication, the Kaufman test was administered with 4 days of meds.

aeh - I am perplexed as her teacher's and therapist's observations of her ability to recall details. For example, her therapist states with every visit that she doesn't miss a thing. DD will notice any slight change in her office or if a tiny toy is missing or in a different place or telling all about our pending trip to Yellowstone. I have to read up on the different kinds of memory.

polarbear - I'm taking notes from your comments and you erased exactly how I feel. What is at the root of her struggle? What is frustrating her? I'll keep and eye for the black hole and keep looking for answers. All her teachers (K-2) and other adults that know her remark on how smart she is.
I have a lot of reading to do - fortunately it's a strength like my DD.
Thanks for the help!

Just a note on memory: it sounds like she has excellent recognition, cued, and narrative memory, which is why she can identify -changes- very well. Telling about a pending trip also is in a different category from retrieval efficiency, as it comes equipped with its own memory chain. The kind of skill that would be affected (apart from aforementioned math facts, categories of words, spelling, and letter formation) might include learning how to touch type quickly (because it's arbitrary, with no obvious meaning to the layout of the letters).