Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion to conform or not to conform

But I chose to have kids knowing I would have to feed, clothe and shelter them. Children should mostly obey but they should get an explanation even if it is later.

Even if it is beyond them at the time?

Because that is occasionally the case.

I also disagree fundamentally that it is ever a teacher's job to make SURE that any student learns. That is, to some degree, out of any other human being's pay grade.

A teacher definitely has the responsibility to provide an environment which allows learning for every student.

But some of what children learn isn't stuff that they'd PREFER to learn, too. I think that learning that sometimes they need to trust that authorities have reasons that they may not fully grasp is an okay lesson to learn.

Providing that such authority has demonstrated trustworthiness over time, of course.

I get what you're saying, Cola. I just think that it isn't correct to presume that EVERY requirement of a child 4-8yo is backed by an explanation that: a) such a child is prepared to hear, b) is brief and clear in terms of cause and effect, and/or c) is a good use of anyone's time.

I remember battling with my own DD over stuff like this-- trust me, I have one of these kids myself. If she doesn't see a good reason for something, she is incredibly mulish.

But some things, yeah-- she should have just done them the way the adults in her life asked her to. Even though she didn't believe us about the reasons. Sometimes it really does just boil down to "my judgment is substantially better than yours* and I think that you should."

* by virtue of age, life experience, training, etc. This is why people pay physicians for diagnoses and don't (generally) pay people like Oprah for medical advice. Of course, a fair number of people also feel fully qualified to google away and diagnose themselves these days, too, so... maybe that proves my point, actually.

We've pointed out to DD that occasionally our definition of "adequate" differs from hers with respect to our legal obligations to her re: food, clothing, and shelter.

Just because I provide it doesn't mean that she enjoys what I'm providing, or that it is what she'd have chosen for herself.

I just feel like taking my kids, living in the woods and just teaching them myself. But I can't do that. I make the most money in our household and our kids are expensive lol. I don't mean with the things they have as we aren't living above our means, but I mean with their karate and dance classes and gymnastics. All of that costs money lol. And now we are looking in to private schools but the ones here locally are close to $1800-$2000 a month so that would be more money which means no chance of homeschooling.

With our son, when we explained why he had to read "The Rats Of Nymph" for class and he couldn't just read his Non Fiction History books instead then he complied a lot of easier. He is the type of kid who literally needs to know the purpose behind a lesson. And yes we are those parents whom explain to him why he needs to something and how it's a benefit to not just him but to us as his parents or his teacher. With our daughter we can tell her "because I am the parent and you are the child" but our son isn't like that. Maybe my parenting style is so far to other extreme of what the teaching style is. Maybe that's the problem and for the sake of my child to make sure this teacher stops singling him out because of her issue with me I need to conform to her? I don't know. I'm grasping here. I have no idea what I'm doing anymore.

Cola, I'm going to venture to guess that your little guy is a lot like my DD. That said, "I understand that you would prefer something else, but I have a very good reason for asking you to do it this way-- you just aren't in a position to understand that reason very well at the moment," probably has to come from someone who has demonstrated responsible, honest, mature conduct over a long period of time, and who has proven him/herself to be worthy of trust.

He's clearly across the Rubicon with his teacher-- I doubt that there is a convincing reason that he'd believe with that individual at this point in time. I've seen this with my own DD. Once she loses respect for an authority figure, it's gone, and so is her conscientious compliance with that authority figure.

HowlerKarma.....that is exactly it!!!! She could say the sky is blue and he wouldn't believe her (neither would I lol). So what do I do? How do I work on this? I have a hard time "forcing" my child to respect a teacher whom not only has no respect for him but none for his parents or her peers either.

Cola - I have read all of the posts, on this and the other thread you have going, and you have my sympathy. I agree pretty much with what HK has said above.

That said at some point your DS has to realise, that you are the parent and you are (hopefully) asking him to try his best to get through the year in class. It sounds like he is willing to as well.

Sadly in life we have to, at times follow the lead of people we don't respect - be it an power tripping employer in an entry level job or CEO who has lost his marbles. A sexist/racist university professor or A police officer who has pulled you over for ridiculous reasons but still has the power to arrest you....

I think for your sons sake he needs to learn that at certain times you need to suck it up and get on with it. Yes the teacher is bad, but she will be gone next year. Your son wants to understand the why of everything, and believe me I GET that. I'm certain though that with his intelligence he is capable of understanding the lesson without further explanation and this is rather a personal preference, fingernails on the chalkboard situation for him. We all have these times in life and I think you are so close to the situation that you are missing the big picture.

At this point your child does not need to respect his teacher, he just has to do as he's asked - he needs to respect you.

You have advocated so much against this teacher and made good inroads getting an IEP and some of the school staff on board which is brilliant, the school knows the teacher is not a good fit for your son and therefore if he happens to hand in low scoring work the school will understand - I doubt they are expecting A+ in this situation. I think to encourage your son to continue railing against her is akin to banging his head against a brick wall - you have said you have no other options.

Mahagogo I completely agree. I feel like when I finally get that point where I'm ok with the situation and everything is going ok and he's doing good then something else happens it's like never ending. And for some reason, I still don't quite get it, I am extremely protective of my kids when it comes to their mental happiness. Yes my kids play outside without me babying them and yes they get hurt and dirty and get in fights and I'm ok with that but when someone disrespects my child I seriously go over the top with mama bear mode. It's been a discussion in my household and part of the reason why my husband and I separated for several months last year. It's like this crazy need to 100% have their back when I "know" they aren't in the wrong. But when I heard my son made a little girl cry in second grade I made him make her homemade card apologizing and taught him the importance of empathy and compassion. Maybe I'm just messed up in the head which really isn't helping him any. I wonder if I should just step out of the whole situation all together?

Cola, I sent you a PM

This thread has been super thought-provoking for me and comes at a time where we are considering these same sorts of questions.

It seems that by refusing to challenge a gifted child, or being outright hostile to the idea of giftedness, schools set themselves into an adversarial position against parents. The result is that parents are forced to either a) defend the child against the teacher (Cola, I so feel your pain) or b) change the education to meet the child's needs (which we have done four! times now).

Well, them's the breaks right? Except that children can come away from this situation making some unfortunate conclusions:

* My mom or dad will take my side when I don't like something.
* If I express my unhappiness enough, they will change things to make me happy.
* If I don't like an adult, I don't have to do what they say.
* I'm different or special because school doesn't work for me without a lot of changes.

These attitudes are temperament based, not LOG based. A smart kid can come to these conclusions and use them to their own advantage the same as -- maybe even more-so -- than a typical kid.

Despite our best efforts not to hothouse or coddle or be all special snowflake about things, a kid can still come away with these attitudes. The kid can think that if things are boring, hard, or otherwise yucky, he/she can manipulate the situation to change things.

We find ourselves in this situation where, by trying to get DD challenged academically, she's somehow come away with the opinion that school is there for her amusement and should be adjusted to meet her preferences.

I find this so frustrating. I want school to be hard enough so that she learns grit. I want to be able to say "the teacher said so and you have to do it" because that's a critical life lesson (sometimes you have to do stuff you don't like because someone in authority SAYS SO). I want her to respect her teachers because they are worthy of respect (but how can we respect someone who'd threatened by a 9 year old or who can't bother to hide their distaste for my kid?).

And I want her to know she has to learn to deal with the world as is and that the world isn't going to rearrange itself just for her (though through her effort, she can change the world).

But that only works if the schools are willing to acknowledge who she is and give her what she needs to grow and be challenged. Because they could not, she never learned grit or to try. And because we had to fix it, we put ourselves in the 'change the world for you darling' camp. Now she's being pushed for the first time and it's HARD.

In athletics, she doesn't have this problem. She expects things to get challenging, works hard to meet goals, gets down and stressed sometimes but then moves past it herself, and is so proud when she meets a new goal.

But academically she's a ball of anxiety and crankiness. And it spills over into other ways that she's adamant on changing 'the system'. Now, I get that we need to question authority and change things that are wrong (as a principle I believe this). But when the system is her chores and being a pleasant member of the family, well that's not up for revolution. The dictatorship stands.