That seems to really be the question these days. Conform to Common Core, Conform to the educational stigma on gifted children, Conform to donating to the school that breaks your child and doesn't build him up...conform conform conform. I teach my children to use common sense over intelligence, empathy over roboticism, compassion over cowardness...and I think sometimes I'm the only one who is proud when I hear my child "questioned authority". Anyone else like this or am I alone in my thinking?

Definitely not alone Cola. Been thinking this myself lately.
It is hard to conform when the standards you are been asked to meet don't reach your minimum expectations......like having a school that will respect and help your child to the best of their abilities. You have been having a tough time in that regard which I am sure is wearing you down.
I have been wondering if the stigma on giftedness has somehow increased lately. It could be that we see so much of the struggle here compared to the triumph, but it does seem that it has been tough for a lot of people lately.
Maybe its tougher for the schools too. Putting on my compassion hat, maybe they are struggling with the changes to education and so being asked to do anything outside the box just feels even harder. Maybe in their struggle to conform themselves they are angry and frustrated with every deviance from expectation.
Still, its no excuse for the hurt they put some families through.

Trying to clout these little ingrates into shape.
-Pink Floyd

He's my debater for sure and I don't ever tell him to be quiet. His teachers response for a lot of stuff is "because I said so" but that doesn't fly in my household. To us that's a power trip and power trips are not acceptable as it is bullying and I teach my children to stand up to bullies.

I think there needs to be a balance that is learned. It certainly is a reality of working life that often you need to conform and just do what your boss says.

Even in more casual relationships and friendships, it things can be much more pleasant if you don't debate all the time and so on.

Of course, I don't believe that children's ideas are less than adults just because of their age, either. I don't mind questioning of the rules. However, I do not have time to explain the reasoning behind each rule (or whatever) in the moment. So sometimes the questions and debate have to wait, but the child still needs to do as they are told.

So I think I both agree and disagree with the OP. I have seen many teachers who are more open to debate and questions now that when I was a kid. So I think we are already moving in that direction.

My ds will not stop with a because I said so. As one teacher put it (I took it as a snotty comment) "he continues to leads the class in questioning skills and participation". I said "I am sorry but this is music to my ears."

I have a feeling it is not going to change.

For a class of 20 or more children led by one adult not to dissolve into chaos, a certain level of conformity and obedience is needed on the part of the children. When the teacher is not in charge, bullies may take over.

DS7 questions the reason for everything. If there is a good reason to conform or comply, he will if he can. If not, he won't. I am glad for this questioning trait, and try to sustain it in DS, and in myself and DH as well. Our family is very often swimming against the tide, though, because of it.

"Because I said so" has been a failed reason since he could understand the words. It was a sure path to an epic battle, and I stopped saying it before he was 2.

The challenge, though, is often helping him see that a reason is not only good, but that it is "just." If he sees a rule being unfairly enforced, conformance sits badly. It becomes an itch he can't scratch, that makes him crazy. But honestly - same for me.

Side note - in DS's pre-school days, I sort of wished he would get with the program. Then, I started learning how to support him, and now I see him growing into a more whole person. In my most honest moments, I am glad he's so bone-headed about needing to know WHY. If he hadn't bucked the system, he could have been squashed. I would never have seen his needs and been driven (by all the trouble he got into) to take care of them. And I know the damage that would have done - because it was done to quiet, conforming child-me!

I'm mostly all better these days But I'm trying hard to help DS not need to get "all better."

Sue
P.S. And now I'm a lawyer, and get paid well to demand that people tell me "WHY." Yippeeeeeeee!!!

Bostonian- good point. But we've had two public school teachers now. One was the bully Cola described, and her class was in chaos all the time. She did a fine job of teaching the bullies how to bully! One has a class of 20, explains the reasons for things - to all of them - and has magnificent control over her class. Oh - because she doesn't have to control them. They understand why it's a good idea to follow her instructions.

When I was a kid, my mom used to tell me that the Conform! thing was a problem in her school, all the way back to first grade. So this an old and sad problem.

I expect my kids to conform to certain reasonable behavioral norms. Like Bostonian said, chaos is bad.

That said, some years ago, my son was embroiled in a kindergarten recess scandal called "the haunted bathroom." It involved turning the lights off (there were windows in this bog) and tossing dry bog roll "ghosts" around while saying, "Wooo-ooo-ooo!" (something about the strips of bog roll looking ghostly while wafting down to the floor). I believe that the intended "victims" of the haunting turned themselves into ghosts, so as to partake of the general spookiness.

The administration was deeply concerned about this very serious situation. They sent an email home. The parents did not share their angst. They followed up the email with a letter. There was talk of a meeting. The parents felt that the administration would have best handled the situation by turning the lights on, making the kids clean up the bog roll, and telling them not to waste stuff that is made from trees. The administration finally ended its campaign against the perpetrators of the HB due to everyone else's complete lack of interest in pursuing the case.

Anyway. Conform! Or then again...maybe not.

I wanted to add a comment about the Common Core standards being very different from Common Core eduproducts made by Big Ed companies like Pearson. The standards were created by knowledgeable people who thought very carefully about what kids should know, and took a long time in committing these ideas to paper. I will go out on a limb and say that the same is not true of Pearson's contractors, who are underpaid to (quickly and on deadline) produce CC-aligned subject content, create personalized learning systems, and deliver platforms that facilitate subject mastery (tm).

It's easy to recognize an eduproduct. It comes with a sparkly sticker that announces " Common Core Compatible! " The eduproduct itself is shiny, friendly, and welcoming, so as not to frighten students away from scary subjects. These products (aka "deliverables") are also replete with pictures of exotic animals, superheroes, ancient monuments, and suchlike. Given that the photos are tangentially, if at all, related to the subject matter, I can only presume that their purpose is to dim the fires of subject-fear while simultaneously filling more white space on a page without having to resort to writing actual information. The margins are filled with real-world tie-ins, URLs promising "deeper understanding," and a variety of icons whose meanings must be looked up in the Introduction. And finally, if you dig, well...shallow, you discover that these eduproducts are a dog's dinner of mashed up concepts written in a nearly incoherent way. This is especially true of the math books. Especially the math books.

So please, gentle readers, let us not blame the Common Core itself for the fact that our governments and state school boards decided to contract out educational content to the bidder with the shiniest stickers.

More bubble tests, anyone?

Speaking as someone who parses Diane Ravitch's site daily I'd disagree a bit with that characterization. The common core standards were written by an idiosyncratic small group of experts mostly hand picked by the Gates Foundation rather than a systematic or representative group of accepted leaders in the fields affected. The process was also mostly opaque and did not have an adequate revision process. See:

http://blogs.edweek.org/teachers/living-in-dialogue/2009/07/national_standards_process_ign.html

On top of that, despite from the outside the idea that in the abstract early learning is a non-contentious subject, there are a ton of long standing battles over from constuctivism in math to close reading/phonics in language arts. Its very possible to examine them solely from the pedagogical standpoint and find serious criticisms.

For example: http://danielskatz.net/2014/09/19/dear-common-core-english-standards-can-we-talk/

Diane Ravitch is lying. See this piece on the development of the standards. Quotes here:



Two periods of public comments that garnered 10K comments that were used to shape the standards is hardly "opaque," nor does it constitute "inadequate revision."


Again, none of this is opaque and it all speaks to extensive revision by a lot of people who were thinking carefully.

I found this information after a brief Google search. The same page I linked to has a detailed timeline describing how the standards were conceived, designed, and written. There were so many organizations involved, I can't list them all here. Did the Gates Foundation handpick umpteen organizations?

The Common Core has been politicized, and people like Diane Ravitch obfuscate rather than clarify. Speaking politely, this is unethical.

I worked for Pearson out of Chandler ,Az...the amount of revenue generated compared to given back to the community was astonounishing and I love the company for that. They love the idea of moving forward but some things that aren't broke shouldn't be fixed.

I am proud when my children appropriately challenge authority. Most often, this may be a quiet aside with the teacher rather than holding the rest of the class hostage but sometimes it is necessary for the rest of the class to be involved. I remind them that their absolute rights end where others' rights begin so they need to exercise good judgment. This is not purely altruistic as it is part of developing necessary social skills and to avoid becoming pariahs. Like Bostonian pointed out, chaos serve no one. It's also a balancing act since no one child's right to constant questioning trumps all the other children's rights to classroom instruction and practice.

As for Common Core (at least the standards themselves), I am a conformist not because I am a sheep but because I believe that it is good particularly for the poor performing states to be held to a higher standard. Of course, the implementation of Common Core in some states/districts has been problematic and there is the additional political issue of the federal government using funding to "coerce" states to comply.

Ultimately though, it simply boggles the mind the vast difference between the education in a high performing state versus a poor performing one. I feel so sorry for all the kids that are getting such substandard education due to where they live because it is hard to catch up in college, particularly if they end up attending a competitive university.

Maybe I'm just weird, but I don't see a conflict between "asking questions" and "respecting authority."

I think asking questions undermines authority and causes confusion and delay.

But if it helps students understand the lesson isn't that part of teaching? They want kids to "explain the how" of getting an answer but they don't want to explain why. If my out of nowhere wanted me to change a process ( which happens constantly in mortgage) they explain why. I could tell my kids they have to brush their teeth because I said so and it will cause a power struggle but when I explain why its important they don't fight me on it.

And let's say a new law is implemented saying you have to have blonde hair and when you ask why their answer is "because we said so". I don't see many people accepting that as a valid answer.

Educational achievement differences across the 50 states are not primarily due to differences in the quality of schools in those states. Students in California now rank near the bottom in both reading and math. That was not true a few decades ago, and I don't think it was because the teachers or curriculum in California deteriorated more than in the rest of the country during that time span.

If we moved from MA to a state that does worse on tests, I don't think our children would get substantially dumber.

I'm in Arizona where they are cutting budgets every year for education but throwing more money into high rises and administration costs of big companies. Our teachers get paid less here and have bigger class sizes than the norm.

I was not aware that California is now near the bottom although their funding issues are periodically in the news and they do have a disproportionate ESL population. I was thinking of other states whose curriculums with which I am familiar. Anyhow, I purposely did not want to call out and criticize any specific states.

I don't live in MA but in general, our children certainly would not get substantially dumber partly because they have educated parents with resources. Relatives/friends in some of these poor performing states send their kids to top prep schools and/or extra-curricular acceleration/enrichment opportunities. The high average(and below)ability kids with financially strapped and/or uninvolved parents probably would not fare as well.

I can only answer this by saying that California teachers are generally well-paid and that the "teachers are underpaid" argument holds no water in this state. The teachers in our district average $75K per year. That's a good salary. If two teachers were married, they'd be earning enough to put them solidly in the upper middle class, even in a pricey place like the Bay Area.

I wonder if we simply expect too much of many students. Many or most students are simply not bright enough to complete a college education in a traditional subject area like English, history, or a STEM field. They get degrees in subjects that are often tickets to low wages and student debt.

In addition, poverty and poor healthcare contribute to poor school performance. Schools can't fix that, but we as a nation blame them for the problems that result from them on the one hand and don't seem to want to take steps to fix the problems on the other hand.

Bad textbooks don't help, either. Especially bad math textbooks, but I've already commented on that problem.

So do you question them? Or comply?

Javohl!

I think it reduces confusion and delay, for complicated requests. Whether it undermines authority or not depends on the insecurity level of the authorities.

For emergencies, a "Hear me now and believe me later" approach is acceptable.

Only insecure people object to a polite question versus a challenge. There are time when 'because I want you to' is a valid reason in my house though. Sometimes I just want it done a certain way and I acknowledge there may be better ways but we really don't have time to experiment at that point. Ds is sure his way would be quicker but I can't have it take longer and I don't have time to argue.

We have three kids to get out the door in the morning and into bed at night, and the two which are talking in full sentences are perfectly cable of yelling "why?" and arguing forever every single time they are asked to come for breakfast/lunch/dinner, eat their greens, put on their socks, brush their teeth....they know why. All of these things have been explained a myriad times. I make my stand that finally yelling "because I said so!" on behalf of a frustrated parent is a reaction to being bullied!

Concerning the "high standards for all" movement and the question of whether it is actually beneficial to hold up these standards for all, but especially for underprivileged kids, some of you may be interested in this article by Andreas Schleicher, the OECD's education director responsible for the PISA study, whom I would like to assert I disagree with on many counts, but on the high standards for all thing he's got me sold.
Also a very interesting book on that by an American journalist Amanda Ripley, which I believe has been mentioned before on these boards, with the (admittedly stupid) title "the smartest kids in the world.

Of course the salient thing for the high ability/HG+ gifted kids remains to make sure that these children are allowed to go above and beyond those standards! and not made to conform "down"' as it were. According to the PISA results for countries like Canada, Finland, and many Asian countries, it does seem to be possible, but it remains a struggle, with a constant need to check and evaluate on what's happening with those kids.

I think an authority that does not allow itself to be questioned should be undermined, and delays are often beneficial when the correct path is uncertain. I will admit, in my own house I do sometimes lay down the law to squash whinny complaining. Whinny complaining is not questioning, but rather apathy.

I like to answer these questions with one of my own: "Why do you ask questions when you already know the answers?"

As a Canadian, I can assure you that public schools, particularly at the elementary level, do not support the pursuit of high standards. Instead, gifted students are routinely given IEPs that are not implemented and required to not receive instruction above grade level (even in congregated gifted programs).

At work - I actually practice this delicate art, when it becomes clear to me that an "authority" needs to be slowed down, educated or, frankly, exposed as wrong-headed in a particular instance. Doing it well requires lots of practice in both constructive, critical thinking and respectfully asking questions of authorities.
I'm happy to have DS7 starting his practice early. Some trial and error on it will teach him well!

Yes - but far more likely to be followed when the people being directed know their respectful questions are typically listened to answered respectfully. Then they know the authority is directing ... authoritatively ... based on a real emergency and a good understanding of what needs to be done.

Sue
P.S. I finally figured out how to use "quote"!

So is being silent in a way conforming? Its bad enough these kids can't explain their thinking process already hence the push on common core so shouldn't it be necessary the teacher needs to explain the logic behind the lesson in an effort to get students more engaged? I question a lot of things...obviously...as the more I know the more I understand and in return the more compliant I'll be

Increased understanding also leads to confusion and delay.

But what if it doesn't. What if understanding the process why as well as how is the key to the success for gifted children?

For example: students are told to show their work. Their answer is in their head. They don't see the logic behind "show your work" so they ask why. If the response is "because I said so" how is that helping them in the long run?

Look at it from the perspective of the poor, underpaid, stressed out teacher.

The teacher is desperate to avoid confusion and delay, but these insolent gifted children continue to produce question after question.

Each question a hammer-blow against the mind of the teacher until one day, in desperation, the teacher files a complaint with the union to recover damages for work-related stress.

The next year, the number of stressed-out teachers increases, and a strike is called, lasting for months, and disrupting the entire school year.

I think if there is a constant pushback from the teacher I would be looking at how your son is questioning things. - Is he using a respectful tone, is he accepting the teacher's answer, is he disrupting the class for a large amount of time.

I once worked with a woman who felt she could not be convinced to do anything without a full explanation of why she was doing it. Meetings were tedious in the extreme with this person, when everyone else could see that the woman was just plain nit picking/being argumentative.

I'm certainly not saying that children don't have a right to question authority or have their questions answered, but I do feel very strongly that some parents don't respect schools but send their kids anyway with the belief that they don't have to respect their teacher at all.

I think if your child is old enough to be questioning the teachers methods, they are old enough to request a meeting outside of class time, where they can outline their own concerns and possible solutions. Such as: I can't show my work because.... Can you give me some more problems so I can prove to you I know what the answers are.
This will then hopefully give the teacher an opportunity to say -well I am worried that you can come up with the answer in this case, but what about more complicated problems - do you know how you get the answer etc.

Likewise child can also explain to the teacher that he really struggles to understand the how of something if he doesn't know the why and can she build an explanation into her lessons.

We all know there are some very bad teachers out there, but I think we have to teach our kids some personal responsibility with regard to how they function in a society that is not really set up for them.

The students are told to show their work and we all know how gifted kids are with showing work. So you have a situation where the children told to do something that makes no sense to them. Multiply these two numbers and show your work for example. When a student asks her why and her response is "because I said so" that's not teaching them anything. There's a thin line between acting like an adult and acting like a dictator. We teach our children common sense so if someone said go jump off that bridge we want them to be able to use that common sense and not do it right? Well in a gifted child's mind , at least with my child, it doesn't make sense to show his work. If the teacher takes a moment to explain to the kids why its important to show their work they would be inclined to do so. I'm not talking about the kid who asks "why" when you say for the hundredth time its time for bed we are talking about a group of kids who have this inner need to understand the importance of what they are doing.

Yes we get a lot of push back from this one teacher and it stems from the internal investigation from earlier in the year and yes there are personal issues. But my question is...why should we force these brilliant minds to be quiet and conform when allowing them to be gifted children will help them grow up to be independent members of society who can change the world? Imagine if Martin Luther King or Hawkings was told "because I said so" and they never questioned anything?

There is a difference between 'why am I doing this' and 'why should I do this' but unfortunately a stressed teacher tends to assume the most negative scenario.

The traditional view is that children owe their parents obedience not just because the parents are older and wiser but because the children are dependent. No emergency needs to be invoked. In our house we don't eat food X because it is against the family religion. We don't need to justify this restriction to our children, and in fact it cannot be logically justified. Why should some children not eat pork, others not eat beef, and others not eat meat at all for religious reasons or because their parents believe for non-religious reasons that eating meat is wrong? It's because the parents are putting the food on the table, for which the children should be grateful.

Feeding your children is sorta required by law, so I'm not sure why they should be grateful you didn't violate their legally-protected rights.

While I agree in theory, I also would like to point out that what to ONE individual is a critical existential kind of question can often come off as "tedious" (as another poster so helpfully termed this behavior, say, in meetings with another adult even) when this behavior holds an entire group of people hostage to the Q&A session day after day.

The other thing that I wanted to mention is that gifted children are still, well--

children.

With so, so much of what that entails. If you are trying to get three children out the door in the morning, is it really acceptable to have to patiently EXPLAIN to your gifted four year old that being cold isn't the ONLY reason why putting weather-appropriate clothing on is necessary in the moment?

Sure, that might be a discussion for later-- fine. But not in the moment, when you simply need your child's cooperation and trust in YOUR judgment as the adult in that situation.

Generally, what we've found is that our DD tests others-- to see whether or not they are logical and reasonable. If so, then she tends to follow their advice and is more cooperative than not. If not, heaven help that person with requests that DD can't see any reason for.

It's a trust thing for her-- not an autonomy one.

Still. There are reasons why I forbid her to engage in some activities or behaviors-- and those are not necessarily reasons that she is yet equipped to fully grasp. Believe me, we had that discussion just this morning with our nearly 16yo daughter, re: why she will be BUYING her first car from us, regardless of whether or not that car is "cute" or "what she would have chosen" (it's safe and reliable), and she will be making regular (significant, but not 'painful') payments to us for two years. Oh yes, this is a life-skills and arc-of-development strategy on our part, and we've been open about it. It's still an exceedingly gracious deal for her, as we'll be covering maintenance until she moves out, and insuring her... and we are selling her that vehicle for about 15% of its actual value, and she will own it outright at 18yo.

She still doesn't really get it. She will thank us someday. But that day is not today. LOL. Today is about "why should I??" and "I don't WANNA..."

Just a thought maybe it's a valuable life lesson that some people will require things from you (hoops) and if you can't get an explanation from that person you can always look elsewhere. Maybe your ds can research the reason why showing work may be necessary ( or why he shouldn't have to). I know there have been times when I have not known the why of things until the proverbial hit the fan.

Yeah, let me also add that my daughter would be having a MUCH easier time of things in college if someone had laid down the law with her re: showing her work in greater detail a lot sooner than, say, calculus.

She's internalized that she shouldn't HAVE to, see.

The real reason for showing your work is so that another human being can follow along using the same method of problem solving that you have chosen.

It's also grooming for higher levels of instruction where that is essential to helping students find and remediate problems with their own understanding and problem-solving process. Without being able to see exactly where a student's process derails, all you have is "this velocity question is wrong." That's not very helpful if the student's problem is that s/he wrote down the wrong mass, versus not differentiating correctly or something like that. KWIM?

It's about forming good habits young. And yeah, it's kind of excessive when we're talking about math facts that educators are also hoping that students will gain automaticity over-- because really, 'explain why 2 + 2 = 4' would be a pretty challenging thing for most adults, and ditto for a child who has one-to-one correspondence and math facts to 10 down.

But "explain" relative to simple geometry and algebraic problem solving lays the foundation for communicating more complex ideas, and proofs, etc.

How capable is the average 6 or 8yo of 'getting' that series of ideas? Probably not very-- not even if s/he is PG.

It's just a lack of perspective and life experience.

My explanation to my DD is that this is done so that, if you get the answer wrong, the teacher can follow your methodology and find out exactly WHY it went wrong. Since DD is the type who can easily transpose a sign or a digit, this works in her favor... the teacher can verify that she understands the concept, it was just a stupid mistake, and partial credit is awarded.

It was just this week that DD expressed how she can't wait to go further in math, because at present her problems have so many steps, and she hates having to document them all. Yeah... about that...

Because food, shelter, and clothing are bought with money earned by the parents.

Yeah, but you're supposed to.

Bostonian, you lost this one.

Its your responsibility as a parent to feed, clothe and care for your child. It is the teachers responsibility to make sure that child learns...and we know not all kids learn the same way and some need to know the validity of why they are being asked to do something.

But I chose to have kids knowing I would have to feed, clothe and shelter them. Children should mostly obey but they should get an explanation even if it is later.

Even if it is beyond them at the time?

Because that is occasionally the case.

I also disagree fundamentally that it is ever a teacher's job to make SURE that any student learns. That is, to some degree, out of any other human being's pay grade.

A teacher definitely has the responsibility to provide an environment which allows learning for every student.

But some of what children learn isn't stuff that they'd PREFER to learn, too. I think that learning that sometimes they need to trust that authorities have reasons that they may not fully grasp is an okay lesson to learn.

Providing that such authority has demonstrated trustworthiness over time, of course.

I get what you're saying, Cola. I just think that it isn't correct to presume that EVERY requirement of a child 4-8yo is backed by an explanation that: a) such a child is prepared to hear, b) is brief and clear in terms of cause and effect, and/or c) is a good use of anyone's time.

I remember battling with my own DD over stuff like this-- trust me, I have one of these kids myself. If she doesn't see a good reason for something, she is incredibly mulish.

But some things, yeah-- she should have just done them the way the adults in her life asked her to. Even though she didn't believe us about the reasons. Sometimes it really does just boil down to "my judgment is substantially better than yours* and I think that you should."

* by virtue of age, life experience, training, etc. This is why people pay physicians for diagnoses and don't (generally) pay people like Oprah for medical advice. Of course, a fair number of people also feel fully qualified to google away and diagnose themselves these days, too, so... maybe that proves my point, actually.

We've pointed out to DD that occasionally our definition of "adequate" differs from hers with respect to our legal obligations to her re: food, clothing, and shelter.

Just because I provide it doesn't mean that she enjoys what I'm providing, or that it is what she'd have chosen for herself.

I just feel like taking my kids, living in the woods and just teaching them myself. But I can't do that. I make the most money in our household and our kids are expensive lol. I don't mean with the things they have as we aren't living above our means, but I mean with their karate and dance classes and gymnastics. All of that costs money lol. And now we are looking in to private schools but the ones here locally are close to $1800-$2000 a month so that would be more money which means no chance of homeschooling.

With our son, when we explained why he had to read "The Rats Of Nymph" for class and he couldn't just read his Non Fiction History books instead then he complied a lot of easier. He is the type of kid who literally needs to know the purpose behind a lesson. And yes we are those parents whom explain to him why he needs to something and how it's a benefit to not just him but to us as his parents or his teacher. With our daughter we can tell her "because I am the parent and you are the child" but our son isn't like that. Maybe my parenting style is so far to other extreme of what the teaching style is. Maybe that's the problem and for the sake of my child to make sure this teacher stops singling him out because of her issue with me I need to conform to her? I don't know. I'm grasping here. I have no idea what I'm doing anymore.

Cola, I'm going to venture to guess that your little guy is a lot like my DD. That said, "I understand that you would prefer something else, but I have a very good reason for asking you to do it this way-- you just aren't in a position to understand that reason very well at the moment," probably has to come from someone who has demonstrated responsible, honest, mature conduct over a long period of time, and who has proven him/herself to be worthy of trust.

He's clearly across the Rubicon with his teacher-- I doubt that there is a convincing reason that he'd believe with that individual at this point in time. I've seen this with my own DD. Once she loses respect for an authority figure, it's gone, and so is her conscientious compliance with that authority figure.

HowlerKarma.....that is exactly it!!!! She could say the sky is blue and he wouldn't believe her (neither would I lol). So what do I do? How do I work on this? I have a hard time "forcing" my child to respect a teacher whom not only has no respect for him but none for his parents or her peers either.

Cola - I have read all of the posts, on this and the other thread you have going, and you have my sympathy. I agree pretty much with what HK has said above.

That said at some point your DS has to realise, that you are the parent and you are (hopefully) asking him to try his best to get through the year in class. It sounds like he is willing to as well.

Sadly in life we have to, at times follow the lead of people we don't respect - be it an power tripping employer in an entry level job or CEO who has lost his marbles. A sexist/racist university professor or A police officer who has pulled you over for ridiculous reasons but still has the power to arrest you....

I think for your sons sake he needs to learn that at certain times you need to suck it up and get on with it. Yes the teacher is bad, but she will be gone next year. Your son wants to understand the why of everything, and believe me I GET that. I'm certain though that with his intelligence he is capable of understanding the lesson without further explanation and this is rather a personal preference, fingernails on the chalkboard situation for him. We all have these times in life and I think you are so close to the situation that you are missing the big picture.

At this point your child does not need to respect his teacher, he just has to do as he's asked - he needs to respect you.

You have advocated so much against this teacher and made good inroads getting an IEP and some of the school staff on board which is brilliant, the school knows the teacher is not a good fit for your son and therefore if he happens to hand in low scoring work the school will understand - I doubt they are expecting A+ in this situation. I think to encourage your son to continue railing against her is akin to banging his head against a brick wall - you have said you have no other options.

Mahagogo I completely agree. I feel like when I finally get that point where I'm ok with the situation and everything is going ok and he's doing good then something else happens it's like never ending. And for some reason, I still don't quite get it, I am extremely protective of my kids when it comes to their mental happiness. Yes my kids play outside without me babying them and yes they get hurt and dirty and get in fights and I'm ok with that but when someone disrespects my child I seriously go over the top with mama bear mode. It's been a discussion in my household and part of the reason why my husband and I separated for several months last year. It's like this crazy need to 100% have their back when I "know" they aren't in the wrong. But when I heard my son made a little girl cry in second grade I made him make her homemade card apologizing and taught him the importance of empathy and compassion. Maybe I'm just messed up in the head which really isn't helping him any. I wonder if I should just step out of the whole situation all together?

Cola, I sent you a PM

This thread has been super thought-provoking for me and comes at a time where we are considering these same sorts of questions.

It seems that by refusing to challenge a gifted child, or being outright hostile to the idea of giftedness, schools set themselves into an adversarial position against parents. The result is that parents are forced to either a) defend the child against the teacher (Cola, I so feel your pain) or b) change the education to meet the child's needs (which we have done four! times now).

Well, them's the breaks right? Except that children can come away from this situation making some unfortunate conclusions:

* My mom or dad will take my side when I don't like something.
* If I express my unhappiness enough, they will change things to make me happy.
* If I don't like an adult, I don't have to do what they say.
* I'm different or special because school doesn't work for me without a lot of changes.

These attitudes are temperament based, not LOG based. A smart kid can come to these conclusions and use them to their own advantage the same as -- maybe even more-so -- than a typical kid.

Despite our best efforts not to hothouse or coddle or be all special snowflake about things, a kid can still come away with these attitudes. The kid can think that if things are boring, hard, or otherwise yucky, he/she can manipulate the situation to change things.

We find ourselves in this situation where, by trying to get DD challenged academically, she's somehow come away with the opinion that school is there for her amusement and should be adjusted to meet her preferences.

I find this so frustrating. I want school to be hard enough so that she learns grit. I want to be able to say "the teacher said so and you have to do it" because that's a critical life lesson (sometimes you have to do stuff you don't like because someone in authority SAYS SO). I want her to respect her teachers because they are worthy of respect (but how can we respect someone who'd threatened by a 9 year old or who can't bother to hide their distaste for my kid?).

And I want her to know she has to learn to deal with the world as is and that the world isn't going to rearrange itself just for her (though through her effort, she can change the world).

But that only works if the schools are willing to acknowledge who she is and give her what she needs to grow and be challenged. Because they could not, she never learned grit or to try. And because we had to fix it, we put ourselves in the 'change the world for you darling' camp. Now she's being pushed for the first time and it's HARD.

In athletics, she doesn't have this problem. She expects things to get challenging, works hard to meet goals, gets down and stressed sometimes but then moves past it herself, and is so proud when she meets a new goal.

But academically she's a ball of anxiety and crankiness. And it spills over into other ways that she's adamant on changing 'the system'. Now, I get that we need to question authority and change things that are wrong (as a principle I believe this). But when the system is her chores and being a pleasant member of the family, well that's not up for revolution. The dictatorship stands.

Ivy - thanks for a super contribution on the "thought-provoking" front.

WELL stated, Ivy. My thanks for your post, as well. It's such a hard position to be in, as a parent.

I never thought he could be manipulating the situation but now I'm wondering if he could be??? Have I taught him that? More thought provoking issues to ponder lol. Thanks Ivy. Just kidding...but I think you may be on to something I never thought about.

On the challenge of respecting the teacher:

One of the conversations I often have with my secondary students is about how one cannot allow the personal conflict between you and the person in front of you at this point in time to interfere with reaching your own long-term goals. We talk about how, if you feel like this teacher is overly harsh, or out to get you, attacking them first, or reacting with defiance or disrespect, is not going to help you get to the place you want to be, where you'll be looking back at your time with them in the rear-view mirror. What is going to be more functional for your big picture? The short-term gratification of bucking a difficult teacher or peer, or defying their low expectations of you by becoming a successful, whole human being?

One doesn't have to like or respect this teacher, administrator, or peer, but it is in one's own best interest not to allow personal feeling to become an obstacle to one's own life goals.

Another conversation regards distinguishing between respect for the role/office (teacher, principal, president, etc.), and respect for the person inhabiting the role.

And, finally, my personal belief is that there is something worthy of respect, or, minimally, sympathy, in every person. With my own children, I try to convey the complexity and contradiction of humans--not so easily categorized as "good guys" or "bad guys". And even if one finds it challenging to locate a spark of virtue in a particular person, one can always mourn the lost child.

I love Aeh's post.

Conforming is a passive position and choosing to manage a situation is an active one. Finding a strategy to manage with this teacher is a more active way to view the problem that might leave you feeling more empowered, even if the reality remains. If you and your son discuss ways of managing that involve respecting the position, if not the person, he might rise to the challenge of simply getting through the day without drama. The next step is to get through the day without drama and having my learning needs met to a degree. He is still "manipulating" the situation but in a more positive way.

Did I read on one of the threads that this teacher has a child with ADHD? Sorry, there are a few threads going. If so, do you think she is projecting her anxiety about her own child onto yours?

Cola, even if your DS is, it doesn't mean there's not a problem or a mismatch with the teacher as well. Forgetting about your kid is not OK, no matter what. Baseline, the teacher needs to treat all children in her class with the same care and authority, even if they are all different, even if she doesn't like some of them (I don't like some kids I run across either -- doesn't mean they need to know that).

And I think we have to be careful that 'manipulation' in this sense isn't necessarily deliberate or delinquent. It's more "trying to change the environment is order to a) try to get some result or b) try to avoid something that may be unconscious (fear/anxiety/etc.)." The problem is that while it works with some people (parents!) it doesn't work with everyone and it's not the best way to operate.

Everyone can tell I've been reading "The Manipulative Child" right? And not a moment too soon for our household.

HI NDW, yes she has a young daughter whom has been on medicating since age 4 for ADHD. We are choosing a "non traditional" route at first for our son regarding his ADHD diagnosis. She is rather upset we did not go straight to medication, I don't know if in an effort to validate her personal choice with her child or not. But why she even decided to begin talking to us about how well medication worked with her young child is beyond me. We never asked her she started going on. This whole situation is just messed up....it's hard enough I'm a HSP but throw mama bear in there and now I'm royally messing my head up lol.

Manipulation can be conscious or unconscious and not value laden, its how we interact with the world. From the time a baby is born it uses its few available tools to manipulate its environment, from crying for attention to smiling for attention. We might wear a business suit to an interview or meeting to appear professional, in that sense we manipulate our image, its not a bad thing and is actually expected.

So if we accept that all parties in this situation are manipulating it, consciously or unconsciously, we need to better understand what is driving each person's behaviour.

Which brings me to my question about the teacher and her child with ADHD. Consider the following emotionally charged imaginary scenario.

You are the teacher with your professional knowledge and a child of your own who you think is similar to the one in front of you. You offer your excellent "been there done that" advice and the parent rejects it. Then the parent tries to tell you how to do your job. You know your job and you know what that child needs which is to be medicated like your child...because if you have made that decision it must be the right one. If the parent is not medicating their child, then they must be wrong mustn't they. It couldn't be that you have made a mistake or done the wrong thing (and they haven't they are just second guessing themselves because someone else is doing something different). In order to show I have done the right thing by my child I will constantly point out the ways that ignoring my advice is negatively impacting this other child in school. Maybe then the parents will see the error of their ways. But wait, now the parent is garnering an army of people who are all against me. This is so unfair.......And so on.

You can write that scenario a whole host of ways emphasising the frustration and anger the teacher is feeling about her inability to get what she thinks is the right response which is for you to do what she says. And now not only is the parent ignoring me, the school is ignoring me and the child is ignoring me. Powerless and angry the teacher fights back in small ways to try and wrest control of the situation.

Whatever is driving the teacher, you and your son have ended up in a power struggle and at the moment everyone is losing. That doesn't mean you were wrong to advocate, not at all. It doesn't mean it is ok that your child is being treated this way. But if you want to stay at that school and your child wants to stay in that class, you have to find a way back from the brink and negate the power struggle that exists.

Think hard about any times you have had a positive response from this teacher. Any situations when you have been able to validate her as a teacher or a mother? Have you any common ground to work from? You do, the fact that you are both in the difficult position of raising kids with challenges.

Is there any chance you can go to her in a conciliatory way and seek advice or assistance or just reset the conversation. There may not be but you are going to need to find some connection or place to start so you can work with her.

It is not wrong or giving in or conforming to alter the way you feel or respond to a situation in order to improve it. To be able to change is to be powerful. Wars have started because of people being so wedded to their position and their hurt, which is genuine, that they can't find a way to the bigger goal.

You have nothing to lose as the current situation is clearly not working.

Remember I am not in your position and I am not trying to diminish how awful it is. I am just looking as broadly as I can at it knowing I have been where you are recently and I had to stop so I did not end up at the foot of the cliff.

I do wish you the best.

I used to think I would never parent with "Because I said so." Then I had my DD, and well...

I don't use those exact words, but I often say something like, "I am am adult and have the benefit of many years of experience living in the world that you do not. Based on that life experience, I have wisdom that you do not. I have made a decision. And this is the end of the discussion."

It's important to remember that some kids (not all) find arguing and conflict to be interesting and reinforcing for odd reasons that are not productive.

BTW, I specifically use that argument because I think DD deduced long ago that she is smarter than many adults around her, possibly including me. This can be a destabilizing thing for a child to realize. However, what cannot be denied is that I and the other adults around her have more life experience than she does. She is, again, smart enough to know this is true.

{fervently} AND HOW.

Do-not-engage-do-not-engage-do-not-engage...

For DD, this was a critical life skill-- she's the kind of kid who would (otherwise) quite probably argue with the wrong authority figure at some point down the line, and right or wrong, that seldom ends well. Bigger picture, YK?

My DD's questioning is a mixed bag, and it's not always obvious why she's doing it at first. So, our default position is to explain. Once the conversation starts going in a circle, that's when it becomes apparent that she's just questioning because she doesn't want to do something, and she's being oppositional. That's when I attempt to end the conversation, with signal phrases like, "I've made my decision," and "This conversation is over," which lets her know from prior experience that to continue to question me will result in privilege losses.

Of course, whenever she's questioning over well-traveled ground, we go right to the aforementioned, "Why are you asking questions when you already know the answers?" and "You already know why." Then I signal my disengagement by becoming monosyllabic: "Stop." "Go." "Now."

As for dealing with other authorities, DW and I have made it abundantly clear to her that when she's under someone else's supervision, we will only intervene in significant circumstances. We will not punish her for misbehavior under their care as long as it's something they can already punish her suitably for, and we will not advocate on her behalf unless it's an important issue, and then only after she has already advocated on her own. Within those boundaries, it's her relationship with them, and she'd better figure it out.

Some adults too...

Yup. Huge concern here. Really huge.

LOL. So true.

I am trying to parent my DD away from this too and it's so hard because both SO and I still haven't quite learned to do this with 100% consistency. It's hard.

If the teacher managed to find someone to diagnose and medicate a 4 year old for ADHD she should feel insecure about her decision and the doctor should be censured.

This is a whole other point Puffin.
I was just sticking to the fact that there are so many reasons that motivate people to behave as they do. Sometimes if we can work that out we have a better shot at communication.
We ask our DD, why do you think someone did that or why do you think there is a different viewpoint to yours? She also does debating so at times is forced to defend an argument she doesn't necessarily agree with. It's a very useful way to get her to understand both sides.
Maybe the kids that like to argue could be funneled into debating!

True. I remind myself that the teacher genuiely thinks they are doing the right thing even if I don't agree and most people really don't get up planning how to make things hard for me or my kids. It helps a little.