Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion to conform or not to conform

That seems to really be the question these days. Conform to Common Core, Conform to the educational stigma on gifted children, Conform to donating to the school that breaks your child and doesn't build him up...conform conform conform. I teach my children to use common sense over intelligence, empathy over roboticism, compassion over cowardness...and I think sometimes I'm the only one who is proud when I hear my child "questioned authority". Anyone else like this or am I alone in my thinking?

Definitely not alone Cola. Been thinking this myself lately.
It is hard to conform when the standards you are been asked to meet don't reach your minimum expectations......like having a school that will respect and help your child to the best of their abilities. You have been having a tough time in that regard which I am sure is wearing you down.
I have been wondering if the stigma on giftedness has somehow increased lately. It could be that we see so much of the struggle here compared to the triumph, but it does seem that it has been tough for a lot of people lately.
Maybe its tougher for the schools too. Putting on my compassion hat, maybe they are struggling with the changes to education and so being asked to do anything outside the box just feels even harder. Maybe in their struggle to conform themselves they are angry and frustrated with every deviance from expectation.
Still, its no excuse for the hurt they put some families through.

Trying to clout these little ingrates into shape.
-Pink Floyd

He's my debater for sure and I don't ever tell him to be quiet. His teachers response for a lot of stuff is "because I said so" but that doesn't fly in my household. To us that's a power trip and power trips are not acceptable as it is bullying and I teach my children to stand up to bullies.

I think there needs to be a balance that is learned. It certainly is a reality of working life that often you need to conform and just do what your boss says.

Even in more casual relationships and friendships, it things can be much more pleasant if you don't debate all the time and so on.

Of course, I don't believe that children's ideas are less than adults just because of their age, either. I don't mind questioning of the rules. However, I do not have time to explain the reasoning behind each rule (or whatever) in the moment. So sometimes the questions and debate have to wait, but the child still needs to do as they are told.

So I think I both agree and disagree with the OP. I have seen many teachers who are more open to debate and questions now that when I was a kid. So I think we are already moving in that direction.

My ds will not stop with a because I said so. As one teacher put it (I took it as a snotty comment) "he continues to leads the class in questioning skills and participation". I said "I am sorry but this is music to my ears."

I have a feeling it is not going to change.

For a class of 20 or more children led by one adult not to dissolve into chaos, a certain level of conformity and obedience is needed on the part of the children. When the teacher is not in charge, bullies may take over.

DS7 questions the reason for everything. If there is a good reason to conform or comply, he will if he can. If not, he won't. I am glad for this questioning trait, and try to sustain it in DS, and in myself and DH as well. Our family is very often swimming against the tide, though, because of it.

"Because I said so" has been a failed reason since he could understand the words. It was a sure path to an epic battle, and I stopped saying it before he was 2.

The challenge, though, is often helping him see that a reason is not only good, but that it is "just." If he sees a rule being unfairly enforced, conformance sits badly. It becomes an itch he can't scratch, that makes him crazy. But honestly - same for me.

Side note - in DS's pre-school days, I sort of wished he would get with the program. Then, I started learning how to support him, and now I see him growing into a more whole person. In my most honest moments, I am glad he's so bone-headed about needing to know WHY. If he hadn't bucked the system, he could have been squashed. I would never have seen his needs and been driven (by all the trouble he got into) to take care of them. And I know the damage that would have done - because it was done to quiet, conforming child-me!

I'm mostly all better these days But I'm trying hard to help DS not need to get "all better."

Sue
P.S. And now I'm a lawyer, and get paid well to demand that people tell me "WHY." Yippeeeeeeee!!!

Bostonian- good point. But we've had two public school teachers now. One was the bully Cola described, and her class was in chaos all the time. She did a fine job of teaching the bullies how to bully! One has a class of 20, explains the reasons for things - to all of them - and has magnificent control over her class. Oh - because she doesn't have to control them. They understand why it's a good idea to follow her instructions.

When I was a kid, my mom used to tell me that the Conform! thing was a problem in her school, all the way back to first grade. So this an old and sad problem.

I expect my kids to conform to certain reasonable behavioral norms. Like Bostonian said, chaos is bad.

That said, some years ago, my son was embroiled in a kindergarten recess scandal called "the haunted bathroom." It involved turning the lights off (there were windows in this bog) and tossing dry bog roll "ghosts" around while saying, "Wooo-ooo-ooo!" (something about the strips of bog roll looking ghostly while wafting down to the floor). I believe that the intended "victims" of the haunting turned themselves into ghosts, so as to partake of the general spookiness.

The administration was deeply concerned about this very serious situation. They sent an email home. The parents did not share their angst. They followed up the email with a letter. There was talk of a meeting. The parents felt that the administration would have best handled the situation by turning the lights on, making the kids clean up the bog roll, and telling them not to waste stuff that is made from trees. The administration finally ended its campaign against the perpetrators of the HB due to everyone else's complete lack of interest in pursuing the case.

Anyway. Conform! Or then again...maybe not.

I wanted to add a comment about the Common Core standards being very different from Common Core eduproducts made by Big Ed companies like Pearson. The standards were created by knowledgeable people who thought very carefully about what kids should know, and took a long time in committing these ideas to paper. I will go out on a limb and say that the same is not true of Pearson's contractors, who are underpaid to (quickly and on deadline) produce CC-aligned subject content, create personalized learning systems, and deliver platforms that facilitate subject mastery (tm).

It's easy to recognize an eduproduct. It comes with a sparkly sticker that announces " Common Core Compatible! " The eduproduct itself is shiny, friendly, and welcoming, so as not to frighten students away from scary subjects. These products (aka "deliverables") are also replete with pictures of exotic animals, superheroes, ancient monuments, and suchlike. Given that the photos are tangentially, if at all, related to the subject matter, I can only presume that their purpose is to dim the fires of subject-fear while simultaneously filling more white space on a page without having to resort to writing actual information. The margins are filled with real-world tie-ins, URLs promising "deeper understanding," and a variety of icons whose meanings must be looked up in the Introduction. And finally, if you dig, well...shallow, you discover that these eduproducts are a dog's dinner of mashed up concepts written in a nearly incoherent way. This is especially true of the math books. Especially the math books.

So please, gentle readers, let us not blame the Common Core itself for the fact that our governments and state school boards decided to contract out educational content to the bidder with the shiniest stickers.

More bubble tests, anyone?