Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about Davidson Academy Online - for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S. & Canada.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute

  • Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update Newsletter >

    Free Gifted Resources & Guides >

    Who's Online Now
    1 members (Sadaf Fawad), 74 guests, and 99 robots.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    chrislewis, seyanizikix, scoinerc, truedigitizing, JenniferWong
    11,675 Registered Users
    May
    S M T W T F S
    1 2 3
    4 5 6 7 8 9 10
    11 12 13 14 15 16 17
    18 19 20 21 22 23 24
    25 26 27 28 29 30 31
    Previous Thread
    Next Thread
    Print Thread
    Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,299
    Likes: 2
    Val Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,299
    Likes: 2
    So. I have a question about math education and significant figures.

    My kids are coming home with decimal addition problems that look something like this:

      3.1416  
    +2.71828

    The teacher, the math books, and many internet sites all say that you should do the addition by tossing in a zero, as follows:

      3.14160  
    +2.71828

    I disagree. I think that "tossing in a zero" is one of those little details that seems so reasonable yet creates a blurry picture of mathematics (and science) and can lead to real problems down the road. Bottom line IMO: you don't know if that "6" in 3.1416 is 0.00055-9 being rounded up or 0.00060-4 being rounded down. So yes, you can toss in a zero, but not knowing anything else about the number, you have at best a 1/10 chance that your answer is correct in the 5th decimal place past the zero. And of course, the result in the 5th decimal place can affect the 4th decimal place and so on.

    I don't think it's appropriate to be teaching the finer points of significant figures to kids learning about decimals for the first time. However, I do think it's easy to tell the kids, "You don't know if that 5 is 0.00057 rounded up or 0.00064 rounded down or just plain 0.00060. All of those different numbers will give you different answers when you add. So you should only add the numbers you're sure about, which is only as far as the ten-thousandths place. Just discard any decimal digit past the ten-thousands place in the other number." This approach would also tie in nicely with rounding.


    This method, IMO, sets kids up to have a more intuitive understanding of significant figures and why they're important.

    Thoughts? Am I wrong?

    Last edited by Val; 12/16/13 03:33 PM. Reason: Change digits
    Joined: Sep 2008
    Posts: 1,898
    C
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    C
    Joined: Sep 2008
    Posts: 1,898
    Yes, you're wrong, because you are assuming that such a number must be an approximation. It need not be; it might be a precise representation of a rational number, in which case appending a zero gives you a different representation of the same rational number, and is definitely correct.


    Email: my username, followed by 2, at google's mail
    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 5,181
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 5,181
    I agree with you.

    IF this is "necessary" as a bridging thing-- you know, to scaffold computation of differing place values-- then I'd advocate making the "0" a subscript zero.

    That tallies nicely with how scientists tend to carry non-significant figures through calculations-- and we do-- in order to avoid rounding errors.

    At the same time, however, it is still important to be able to evaluate-- at any point in the process, at any point in the calculation, at any point now or in the future-- where there is a question of experimental error, and how large the error might be.



    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,299
    Likes: 2
    Val Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,299
    Likes: 2
    Originally Posted by ColinsMum
    Yes, you're wrong, because you are assuming that such a number must be an approximation. It need not be; it might be a precise representation of a rational number, in which case appending a zero gives you a different representation of the same rational number, and is definitely correct.

    Okay, might be. That's my issue with it. You don't know.

    Math and physics books that deal with significant figures all tell you not to make that assumption. So my feeling here is that if it isn't an approximation, the math book should add the zero and make it clear.

    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,299
    Likes: 2
    Val Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,299
    Likes: 2
    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    IF this is "necessary" as a bridging thing-- you know, to scaffold computation of differing place values-- then I'd advocate making the "0" a subscript zero.

    That tallies nicely with how scientists tend to carry non-significant figures through calculations-- and we do-- in order to avoid rounding errors.

    At the same time, however, it is still important to be able to evaluate-- at any point in the process, at any point in the calculation, at any point now or in the future-- where there is a question of experimental error, and how large the error might be.

    Okay, this makes sense and bundles some important ideas.

    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 5,181
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 5,181
    Right.


    2.3 =/= 2.30000

    Not in scientific terms, anyway.


    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
    Joined: Sep 2008
    Posts: 1,898
    C
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    C
    Joined: Sep 2008
    Posts: 1,898
    Originally Posted by Val
    Originally Posted by ColinsMum
    Yes, you're wrong, because you are assuming that such a number must be an approximation. It need not be; it might be a precise representation of a rational number, in which case appending a zero gives you a different representation of the same rational number, and is definitely correct.

    Okay, might be. That's my issue with it. You don't know.

    Math and physics books that deal with significant figures all tell you not to make that assumption. So my feeling here is that if it isn't an approximation, the math book should add the zero and make it clear.
    How many zeros would you like them to add?


    Email: my username, followed by 2, at google's mail
    Joined: Sep 2008
    Posts: 1,898
    C
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    C
    Joined: Sep 2008
    Posts: 1,898
    More seriously, although I agree with the underlying point that approximation and sane treatment of significant figures should be treated better in school, I do think that this way lies madness.

    What you're going to end up with is children thinking (correctly, in your world) that you can only add numbers if they have the same number of digits after the decimal place. Sure, you can define addition that way, and provided we have ways to coerce numbers into having the right number of decimal places, all will be well. But the children will now not be able to add 1 to 2.5 without first turning 1 into 1.0. If this were proposed in Everyday Math, imagine the outrage.


    Email: my username, followed by 2, at google's mail
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,299
    Likes: 2
    Val Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,299
    Likes: 2
    I will modify my original idea based on comments thus far: let the kids add the zeros as subscripts, but then tell them to round to the place value of the digit where there is a value in each number being added. So you would get

      3.14160  
    +2.71828
      5.85988

    The answer would then be rounded to 5.8599.

    This method would mesh with scientific practice, and again, would create awareness of an idea that will come up in later math and science courses.

    Better?

    Last edited by Val; 12/16/13 03:37 PM.
    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 5,181
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 5,181
    MUCH better.

    Better in terms of the foundation for a later (and more intuitively correct) understanding of Sig-figs, and also better in terms of developing number sense in the here and now.

    Reinforces place-value concepts, too.



    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
    Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

    Moderated by  M-Moderator 

    Link Copied to Clipboard
    Recent Posts
    Why such high gifted ID rate?
    by millersb02 - 05/14/25 07:36 PM
    Patents and Trademarks and Rights, oh my...!
    by indigo - 05/13/25 01:01 PM
    Grade Acceleration K-1-2
    by Eagle Mum - 05/08/25 07:21 AM
    Dysgraphia Remediation?
    by Cindi - 04/26/25 09:16 PM
    Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5