Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion The problem with math.

My DD10 also had math issues early on, based on a number of different things. One was that she would look for patterns in her papers rather than actually try to answer the questions, so she never got it done in class and therefor the teacher decided she couldn't do it. (She would look to see how many times a certain addition or multiplication was written on the page in how many different ways.) It was also everyday math.
She also had some teachers who decided that math was all about speed and nothing else really matters - for a kid who was tuning out during instruction time and looking for patterns this was dreadful. She ended up believing she couldn't do math for a couple of years. It wasn't until we started showing her some of the more complicated math stuff, like fractals and computer programming and some physics problems that she realized that math could be fun and interesting and something that she could sink her teeth into.
She too was "fuzzy" on her multiplication facts - for the same reason - it would take too much time and effort to memorize something she had understood how to do for years before needing it in class.
We tried making math games, playing them on the computer, talking to mathematicians and others that use math in their field and basically it took a really good teacher talking to her about how smart she was and allowing her to ask more advanced questions that seemed unrelated to the topic being taught to convince her that she was good at math. Even this year we had to talk to her math teacher at the beginning of the year and let him in on her feelings towards math because it was affecting her success.
She may also simply be looking at the math in a different way than what is being taught.
I would not move her back down a level because that would confirm in her mind that she is not good at math and then it would be almost impossible to change that opinion again.

Here's how I see this and would tackle this so, implicitly, YMMV.

I would see going 'backwards' as literally the last ditch and only do it if proven utterly unavoidable. Confidence around symbols and numbers is key here - a surprising number of grown adults have managed to convince themselves that they suck at maths when all you really need is the ability to think in a logical manner - something which I believe almost everyone can do.

On the other hand, Maths learning is based on what I would call a progression in that learning what comes later depends on acquiring a solid understanding of what is being learned now and what has been learned. Losing the 'thread' will be fatal and hurrying a child along without a solid 'underfooting' has the potential for disaster.

What to do?

Firstly, I would want an assessment of where my child is in terms of what is expected. I wouldn't take washy washy statements from the teacher at face value - I would want hard concrete facts showing where the gaps are. Also, i would find out what skills need to be acquired by the end of the current year and compare that with my child's data. Then, I would work towards addressing things.

Importantly, constantly bear this thought in mind to get perspective; from the remedial pace that I see today's Maths education crawling along at, ALL IS FAR FROM LOST. Your child can catch up! You have only got 12 weeks or so to catch up on assuming that nothing has been learned - unlikely.

Next, get some materials -I used Singapore Maths because they are published in English so no danger of a bad translation adding to confusion and the Singapore system works. They also have plenty of tests so you can monitor your child's progress and whether or not a concept is properly internalized easily. I would also go with Val here's advice on getting hold of the common core standards because if you can see your child mastering those then you can stop worrying no matter what a teacher is telling you.

It might not be trendy anymore but because my whole class and I easily learned our times tables at 7 ( standard in the UK in those days ) and I had DD knowing them them cold by 6 because they are not an onerous task to memorize once memorized, mental arithmetic becomes trivial which in turn builds confidence.

With my DD a game called 24 helped her fluency and in turn her confidence. Yoo call out 3 numbers and the other person needs to make 24 out of them:-

3,9,12 -> 3+9+12 = 24
3,3,7 -> 3*7+3 = 24
52,46,4 -> (52 - 46) * 4 = 24

You get the idea...

Take turns with calling the numbers out and intentionally flub some ( give up on some that the child throws at you) to build the child's confidence to build 'sneaky' combinations etc.

Hope some of the above helps.

Don't freak out over this because your child cannot have that much to catch up to ;-)

Thank you so much! The time you've all taken to reassure me has been time well spent!
I wrote a letter to the director of curriculum for our district today in hopes that she will see how terrible EM is and implement a new program for next year. (Wishful thinking!) I have ordered Beast Academy and look forward to starting that with dd.
I am trying to find a teenage girl to mentor dd in math, thinking that a positive role model will help.

I love the idea of printing out the CC standards and both checking to see what dd knows and questioning the teacher on what she has assessed dd on. That is just the kind of logical advice I needed to arm myself with for tomorrows conference.

It was such a shock going from straight A's last semester to failing this one. I spoke with her teacher from last year briefly this morning and told her what was going on with dd and she was slack-jawed, neither of us can believe it. I am hoping that last years teacher can step in and advocate a bit. I know she cares about dd and can help us get to the bottom of this.

I may come across as harsh, but why wouldn't a child doing 4th grade math (accelerated from 3rd) know their times tables. (Know, not memorize.) It's just such a teensy weensy easy peasy thing to do. I don't think it's unreasonable for a school to question the mathematical ability of a child who doesn't do this. The child may in fact be highly able mathematically, but they need to show their ability.

My son who just skipped 3rd grade and is now in 4th memorized his multiplication tables in 2nd last year and then over the summer, promptly forgot them. He can figure them out pretty quickly and at his desk you would never know. Working one on one with him you notice that he is pausing and figuring it out. I figured he needed to work with them for a while. We have a week off at Thanksgiving and I will have him work on them an re-learn them. I found as a kid memorizing was difficult, it was just through repeated needing to multiply that they just became automatic. I can't imagine that every kid in the class has them all down pat and it doesn't keep him from doing his work and doing it well. It would just be to his advantage to put that behind him.

Maybe you could come and teach her?

My DD is a bit younger (just turned 8) but also struggled with multiplication. I had her do Big Brainz over the summer (multiplication video game--check it out) and she passed it. Since she isn't doing it at school (except very advanced multiplication with a calculator for her "enriched math") she is forgetting her facts. Some kids have a hard time memorizing them and retaining them, even very gifted kids. My younger kid is much better at retaining multiplication facts, for whatever reason, but he has a harder time recalling addition/subtraction facts than DD. If you can do intensive drill with her facts and that is the main problem this year, she will probably be Ok.

22B, there really seem to be some very bright kids (and adults) who struggle with memorizing the tables. This is not the case for my kids at all, but after seeing quite a few 99th% kids in DD's magnet have the issue, as well as reading posts here about it, I have to conclude that it is relatively common.

IMO it has got to be hard to do things like long division without having the tables down, but it seems that some manage.

I have the sort of opposite kind of kid (DD9) who is an amazing calculator--give her a page of hard long division and she will do it all perfectly--but who sometimes cannot follow conceptual things like word problems. She would prefer for all her math to be numbers only. She is great at mental math and would like that 24 game, but give her something like "A train leaves Philadelphia at 9:30 pm..." or "Bob is making a cabinet out of 9 pieces of wood..." and it's much harder for her.

Just a couple of thoughts, as I myself am still trying to understand exactly HOW they teach multiplication with EM - it is definitely different than when I went to school.

Part of MY DD8's confidence problem (not sure if this could be true for OP's DD), I believe, stems from random, well-intentioned comments the teacher has made that perhaps my DD is taking too-much to heart. But part of it just might be how they cover material in EM - I am trying to sort it all out. They will cover a seemingly random multiplication concept (appears briefly, and not comprehensively), then "spiral" out of it and do something else for quite some time. Then DD says the teacher says to the entire class "you should know your multiplication tables." DD meanwhile, internalizes this and assumes this means automaticity and mastery.

Fortunately, DD DID work on multiplication this summer, since I was trying to remedy the "confidence problem." DD clearly dislikes attempting to memorize, so I've tried to make it fun/interesting. At a certain point, though - you do just need to memorize them. While DD KNOWS multiplication, I do not think she has the automaticity yet. So when she flips to Extra Math and is sometimes "too slow," she quickly becomes frustrated.

I DO think she needs to develop the automaticity, but I think that it perhaps needs to be taught in a different way. I have been trying to encourage her to practice automaticity at home with her 6s, then 7s, etc. EM doesn't seem to do this systematically - or at least I haven't seen it. We do not have texts that come home, so sometimes it is a bit difficult to follow. I could be misunderstanding it.

I believe this is exacerbated in DD by having some academic areas come VERY easy (e.g., reading), so she instead just globally claims to "hate math." Which makes me say "oh, dear!" She is awfully young to be thinking this way! This child is normally EXTREMELY PERSISTENT in other areas of life, so I am trying to get her to apply some of that persistence to her academic life, too!

OTOH, DD seems to have excellent number sense and is great at word problems.

Blackcat, looks interesting. Is there an app?

It is interesting to see other bright, similarly-aged girls have confidence issues, too. I would like to improve DD's attitude about math! (Trying!)

Loy58, my DD says she hates math and isn't good at it despite never getting anything other than straight As in it and scoring well enough on an (easy) standardized math test (actually, she got a perfect score) to be selected for Duke TIP. *sigh*