Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Non-verbal IQ 27 points higher than Verbal?

6-year-old DS scored a 141 on Perceptual Reasoning on the WISC IV but only 114 on the Verbal section. The neuropsych said the 141 is actually an underestimate because one of the tests was block design and DS has severe fine motor issues (manual dexterity under the first percentile). So he scored a 13 on block design vs. 18-19 on the other two non-verbal subtests. On the verbal subtests he scored a 12 and 13's.
I tried to figure out what this gap can mean and the only thing I can find is autism, which DS doesn't have. He does have Developmental Coordination Disorder and had delayed speech. He still has fluency/output issues. Would those speech issues lower the verbal score?
Has anyone else had scores like this and was there a concern or explanation?
DS only scored 109 and 110 for processing speed and working memory so that is a big gap as well. I don't understand why non-verbal is so high and everything else is average. His lowest scores were 10's--digit span and coding. There is possible ADHD.
The neuropsych wrote that individuals with superior non-verbal reasoning skills tend to learn differently than their peers and often require specialized classes to accomodate this learning style. He recommended eval. for gifted/talented to maximize his potential.

Anyone know what he means by "learn differently"? And what kind of specialized classes? I'm sure that his school doesn't have any more of an idea of what this refers to than I do.

I don't have the answers to all of your questions but for comparison's sake, my DS6 has an opposite disparity to yours. He has a 25pt drop between VCI and PRI. He similarly has a Beery VMI in the 2nd percentile, DCD, and confirmed ADHD (we included brain scans in the diagnosis process and as a result we do know for certain that he has it).

However, for mine his processing speed scores are in the 16th percentile....

For mine, his subtests shed light on the disparity. His vision and fine motor issues were impactful on 2 of the 3 subtests for PRI. We are okay knowing that as you mentioned, it is likely an under-estimate. I find that looking at his achievement testing where his math scores are significantly above what was predicted based on PRI to help illustrate how this gap affects him. We also see it in gaps in his math performance... time, money, geometry, and measurement bring lots of errors while calculation is very advanced for example.

Did you also do any achievement testing? Do you have any other data points to shed light on these results?

I think with 6yr olds, we are only really starting school and the answers to how they are affected will become more apparent as time passes. I know I feel impatient to have answers and solutions now but some things will just need time to figure out.

Hopefully someone wiser than I can shed further light on the scores you have shared.

Hmmm... Just thinking. My son had 4 verbal subtests. Which 2 did your son have?

You know I looked at your subtest scores in another thread and your son had 3 verbal subtests that I saw which all had very similar scores: vocabulary, similarities, and comprehension. Looks like he did not do the verbal information subtest.

You mentioned there that your son deals with apraxia which would affect his ability to give verbal responses. My son on the other hand has dysgraphia and (and the vision issues) and performed significantly poorer on non verbal response questions. If he can TELL you, my son performs at superior and above levels.... for your son it looks more like if he can SHOW you... Both of them are constrained by their areas of disability to show their true ability. This is the challenge of being 2e.

ETA: With that 19 and 18 on the PRI, it is acceptable to calculate extended norms for those as they are hitting the ceiling. His score should increase a few points on that section. I do not know if it will be enough but your son is only 4 points away on his PRI from having numbers in the DYS range. It might be worthwhile to have your Psych recalculate with those extended norms.

There's nothing in the report about extended norms. I'll ask about that. So he can qualify for DYS based on just a non-verbal score? I don't know if I care but I'm supposed to take him back in a month or two to look at the ADHD and will ask about the 18-19 subtests.
The only other testing that we've had done was with the OT and PT, showing terrible motor skills, confirming the DCD diagnosis. The OT did do a visual perception test which seemed more like IQ than vision to me. DS scored overall as a 9-year-old with some tests like visual spatial ability and visual memory hitting the ceiling. He hasn't had any math/reading achievement testing in school. His reading fluency is at around a 4th grade level and his reading level is probably late 3rd grade. He can do math that is about 2 years advanced (knows all his division/multiplication facts for example plus has a good understanding of concepts). His writing is terrible and I suspect he has dysgraphia.

I just re-read my post and it must sound very odd that his reading fluency is so high given his speech issues. Sometimes he actually appears to read better than speak and I've been saying that for a couple years.

My 7 yo dd also had a very wide spread, PRI was 151 and VCI was 124. I have also tried to find what this could signify and can only find info about the verbal being much higher than the non-verbal.

So far dd's weakness is writing and she isn't strong in math as I would think she should be given her PRI.

Math as in understanding the concepts or arithmetic/fluency? I think there is a big difference there and often visual people will have problems with skills that involve sequencing. My guess is that the higher level that the math is, the easier it will become. I haven't had my 7 year old DD tested yet, but have a feeling she will be stronger in non-verbal as well, and she is great with math concepts but struggles massively with memorization and math fact fluency.

DYS requires 2 of the 3 options listed on their qualification page. One of those options is the WISC and requires a score at the 99.9% level on FSIQ, or GAI, or VCI or PRI. We are applying with our verbal in that range and also used extended norms so the details on when you can do that are still fresh in my memory. Our NeuroPsy calculated them right in front of me as we chatted, explaining that it is considered proper to use them when 2 or more subtests are at 18/19. I'm not sure that it will be enough to reach the threshold of DYS (our score only went up by 2pts) but is worth considering if it could make some difference for you.

For the other options you can use achievement testing or a portfolio showing his work at 2/3 grade levels ahead. We did private achievement testing in conjunction with our IQ testing both times since it gave more information about what our son needed. Hope that helps!

Ok, thanks. I haven't really put much thought into any groups like DYS, or even the label "gifted"...I just really want to figure out what the scores mean and if they can give me any insight into how his brain works. And if I can use them to get the school to give him accelerated work in some areas, that would be nice as well. I had no idea he was going to take an IQ test when I took him into the neuropsych (would have been nice to know that so I could have made sure he slept more than 8 hours and ate breakfast, lol). But when I saw the test I just hoped he would at least score in the average range for everything. I was really surprised he scored 18-19 on two of the tests. I still keep thinking maybe they made a mistake scoring the test, since the neuropsych was working with a resident, but then I think about how he learned to read so early, he's so good at math, etc. He has a mental image of the U.S. in his head since I hung a map on his wall as a decoration when he was 5. He can tell you where all the states are and what shape they are. One day I casually asked him if he knows where Arizona is and he said "Right by Uh-tah." (took me a minute to figure out what he was talking about). I then started asking him other random states and he could tell me where they were and which states were surrounding. I don't think that's normal for a 5 year old. But most people look at him and just see the oddities from the developmental coordination disorder, and he actually appears kind of babyish. People are shocked when (or if) they see the areas where he is advanced.

blackcat, my ds had a split in VCI and PRI both times he took the WISC - but the direction was opposite both times. I didn't recall his split being as large as your ds' though... but I took a quick peak back at his last WISC just to see which was higher, and it was PRI (just like your ds) ... and his split... contrary to my aging memory... was *almost* as large as your ds' (still not quite that large). Both of his WISCs were given by the same neuropsych, and when I saw that the split was in two different directions between the two tests (given in 2nd and 5th grade), I asked his neuropsych why the change, and her remark was not much more than a shrug of the shoulders. I've never really thought much the split since then but will be interested in what others have to say. I can tell you these things about my ds:

* He has DCD (dyspraxia, developmental coordination disorder) and dysgraphia
* He has an expressive language disorder which is most obvious in written expression but also impacts his verbal expression (just isn't as obvious due to the high level of his typical conversation when he knows what to talk about due to his high IQ - that's my take on it)
* He's really *really* strong in math and science and those are his favorite subjects
* He's a classic "visual spatial thinker"
* He scores really high on visual spatial tests.... but he also scores really high on verbal tests too - exceptionally high on the verbal part of talent search tests etc.

SO - I'm not sure what the gap means, if it's believable... and I'm also not sure how much confidence you can have in WISC results for kids who are 2e. DS was given the WJ-III Test of Cognitive Abilities once through school, and the way the subtests etc were grouped in it actually seemed to make a bit more sense compared to what we see in ds' academics. OTOH, they were also grouped and intermingled with WJ-III Achievement test results, so I wonder if you had a set of WIAT Achievement tests and they were compared with the WISC if you'd have a more representative understanding of what the WISC scores mean in a practical sense?

Just my random thoughts -

Best wishes,

polarbear

ps - eta - I do think that my ds learns "very differently" than the typical linear-learning style that is delivered and expected in school. This has been true in his gifted classes too.........................