Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Age or Ability Specific Forums Pre-school At what point does lying become a "problem"

Things are generally somewhere between "really out of hand" and "almost out of hand" in our house .

DS is almost 3.5, and he lies convincingly. This produces a thorny problem, because, as far as I can tell, the effective lying is precocious, so any approach to handling lying is aimed at older kids, and is not really age-appropriate for a 3 yr old. For 3 yr olds, you're just supposed to gently guide them away from whatever it is. But that doesn't work so well when the lying is really _convincing_.

At this point, I would say 80-90% of what he says, for days at a time, is intended to procure a particular result, rather than to mean what it means. Not all of that is lying, but much of it is, hard to say exactly how much. Much of it is also transparent lying ("I'm thirsty, but I don't want cows milk or water or orange juice" "Do you mean you'd like some of my milk?" "yes" "But I just told you no." kinda stuff.) But then he pulls a doozy about something that hurts, or that he ate something he shouldn't have, or whatever and we're half-way to emerg before we clue in he's lying to get out of something. Another favourite involves saying he needs to pee, and doing a very convincing potty dance in order to aquire a trip into a donut shop, be let out of the carseat, delay cleaning up, etc.

He is also willing to back up certain lies with actions. Like the time he ate glass to prove he could. Which was worrysome, because it could have killed him. He seems to have very little regard for his own safety when he's trying to get his way.

So, I guess it's not just the pure lying that's worrying me, it's the intense committment to the ploy.

Help?
-Mich

Ohhh... the glass thing is scary. I'm glad he's ok.

Both my kids were/is very adept adult manipulators, which I've been told (and I agree) is an anxiety-control measure. In fact, DD9 (6 then) kept her grade 2 teacher so on her toes that she (teacher) told me she's never seen a child that skilled at adult manipulation.

DS8 is better now, but also had almost no regard for safety when it came to his curiosity and impulsivity. O.M.G. From the time he could move away from me as an infant until he was about 7 years old my life was all about CONSTANT SUPERVISION OF THE BOY. lol.

Anyway, for the lying, what ended up working was a lesser punishment for a confession Vs. a greater punishment for being caught in a lie. For example, if they lie, they lose coveted item for two days, but if they tell me they lied, or if they confess to having done something wrong, the loss is only for one day, with a reminder that if they had lied, it would have been two days. I managed to catch them in enough lies to earn myself the disciplinary credibility to make it work ;p

Have you ever told your son the story of the boy who cried wolf? This is another tactic I've used. I've told them this story several times. I'll call them on it too: "So you lied about having to go pee just so that we would go into this donut shop? You're like that boy who cried wolf! If you do this enough, I'm going to stop believing you. What will happen when you REALLY need to pee and we don't look for a bathroom because I think you're lying?" etc etc.

The thing that bugged me the most from my kids was DS(then 5 or 6) pretending to be choking, and then laughing and saying "just kidding!" That would result in time outs, and long discussions about how you DON'T lie about safety and emergencies.

SO glad my two are past this phase... good luck & hang in there

Weellll.... he sounds very much like my youngest dd And with her, it was a phase For your sanity's sake, I won't mention how old she was when she started showing signs of outgrowing the phase

I will, however, commiserate! I wish I could give you some advice, but honestly, this was probably the most difficult part of all the parenting things we've been through (so far, knock on wood, etc).

Hang in there!

polarbear

Lying has come in and out of vogue with my DS6. As much as I don't want the lying, what I really want is the underlying morality to blossom. Taking things to logical conclusions and inciting his sense of justice seems to have a strong impact.

Examples:
Bald face lying on my end, like eating a cookie and telling him we don't have any cookies.

Once when he complained about a stomach ache to avoid a vegetable, we cancelled all activities for the day for him to "rest and recover."

Or completely not believing a simple truth he told. Like "I don't think you built that LEGO car yourself."

I don't think that's lying, unless he actually wasn't thirsty at the time-- it's fairly straightforward manipulation of you. About the lying in general, I wouldn't worry. Lying to get what one wants or to avoid punishment is common among small children, and your son may just be better at it by virtue of his early development.

This brings back memories! I was such a liar! But I didn't always mean to lie. I was simply extending the imaginary. For example, I told everyone in kindergarten that I had a kangaroo at home. I think that when I told the story, it was merely imaginative play but I kept it going. Regrettably, that set me up to be seen as a liar throughout my school years. I also became a petty thief (school supplies, mostly), and I think it was all an extensive of whatever was different about me and my understanding of how the world works.

I don't know what would have worked for me then. Eventually, I stopped lying because the consequences with my peers became too much to handle. I spent so much time being afraid of getting caught in a lie that I quit.

I like your ideas Zen and CCN.

There is a real difference between lying because of a vivid imagination (yes, my imaginary friend is still in the bathroom, so I can't leave yet) and to get out of trouble (no, I didn't see Billy there; I just decided swing out my arm and accidentally punched him in the nose. It was an accident.)

When my oldest decided that lying was a lovely tool to get to do what she wanted with no consequences, I sat her down (she was probably four) and told her how important it was that people could trust each other. I told her how upsetting it was when I believed what she said and then found out it was a lie. And then I warned her that if she lied to me again to get out of trouble that I would know that she had decided that lying was ok. And if it was ok for her, it would be ok for me, too. And that at some point I would lie to her but she wouldn't know what about.

And then I kept my word. After then next time I caught her lying, I just said, "Ok. Now you'll have to wonder when I'm lying or telling the truth." About two days later, I promised her that in two days, she and I would have a big, fun day of going to McDonald's for a Happy Meal, buying a new toy at the Disney Store, and then a trip to the park. I talked it up a lot. And then on the day we were supposed to go, I very calmly said, "Oh, no. We're just staying home today. I lied."

She, of course, had melt down and drama and anger and all of the emotions that come when we've been lied to. I kept calm and let her be upset. After she finally calmed down, I sat her in my lap and asked if she understood why lying was so awful. She agreed it was bad and promised not to lie.

Of course, she did from time to time - don't we all - but it wasn't really a problem after that. And even in high school after she forged my signature on a paper, she fessed up and told me about it afterwards.

By the way, it was really, really tough for me not to give in and go ahead and take her. And after she agreed not to lie to me, I did promise her another special treat the following day and followed through so that she could experience the reward of someone not lying to her.

One of the best (though admittedly not foolproof) ways to decrease lying is to avoid creating opportunities for it. In this scenario:

"I'm thirsty, but I don't want cows milk or water or orange juice" "Do you mean you'd like some of my milk?" "yes" "But I just told you no." kinda stuff

I would have stopped after he said what he doesn't want and offered him a choice of two things. If he refused both, well then...guess he's not that thirsty, and that's the end of it.

Same thing with "did you brush your teeth?" and an affirmative answer despite evidence to the contrary (my son's biggest lie at that age). Clearly, if he has puppy breath it doesn't matter if he did, he needs to do it again. So instead, it's just "Irving, your breath is bad, you need to brush." "But I did!" "Well, you need to do it again." Eventually, when the lie gets him nowhere, he doesn't bother.

As for the glass eating...I've got nothin'.

The story of "the boy who cried wolf" also worked very well for my daughter.

My daughter has told me some very convincing and detailed stories about what she did in her daycare that turned out to be just her imaginations. I was getting worried about this, so I told her the story of "the boy who cried wolf". She actually enjoyed the story so much. After hearing it one more time, she could retell the story herself, even with most of the extra details I made up. She also became very careful not to lie afterwards.

Every child is different. But maybe you can give this story a try and ask your child why no one helped the boy who cried wolf in the end.