Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion musical talent

I thought this profile of composer Michael Hersch was interesting. It is encouraging that a great musical talent may become accomplished even if he starts training as an adult.

http://www.nationalreview.com/nrd/articles/299757/his-own-drum
His Own Drum
By Jay Nordlinger
National Review

the concept of a great talent developing like you state is proof again that giftedness (of any type) is innate and not developed by pushy parents and hothousing. All the books and documentation I have ever read on giftedness indicate that regardless of the prior educational environment etc, when placed in the right environment a gifted child will fly until they reach the level they would have been at without the restrictions previously imposed.

The only question I have on the entire concept is how then, does learnt underachievement fit into this picture? I'd assume on a surface thought that if you could repair the learnt underachievement mode you would see the same type of acceleration to reach optimum level for that individual. other thoughts on this?

I read the article, the first sentence might be a hint that this situation is not typical/you couldn't rely on such an outcome?

I don't take away anything that helps me understand why his development soared "in later years" other than just not having access to the right environment/teachers etc.? Did anyone actually discourage him...did he have a hunger to learn and soar and schools/parents discouraged him or didn't give him the skills and enviroment he needed, or was it because all the elments hadn't just clicked yet? That makes a big difference with self-esteem and a person wanting to try.

I am aware of the concept of learned underachievement and am concerned about it for my daughter. My concern comes more from the fact that a child/young adult will learn this from not being challenged over a long period of time and getting lots of messages that they don't really have to try very hard at things, or (what I'm concerned about) is that when their school situation is miserable a parent sort of steps in an tries to comfort them but ends up making things too comfy for them because they feel bad.

I haven't even thought about repairing learned underachievement, except that I guess the longer a person is operating this way the harder it would be to "undo it".

Could you cite two or three of the most convincing of these books etc.? I strongly doubt this assertion, but I'm not sure I've ever seen well conducted research that addresses it, and I'd be very interested to do so.

ETA: actually I'll start a new thread for this general issue, which is wider than music.

Specifically re Hersch, I suspect that there might be some myth-making going on here; some of it just doesn't hang together. His younger brother was learning the French horn, yet he heard classical music for the first time ever at 18? Why hadn't he heard classical music from the horn as his brother practised? It's not a quiet instrument... The article gives the impression that at 18 he had never heard any classical music, couldn't read or write music, had never had an instrumental lesson, yet at 19 he was at a conservatory studying composition, playing his own music on the piano from written scores he'd produced himself... This is less like a late genius story, and more like a "child brought up alone in forest found to speak Greek" story. Did he in fact go to school, study music there, learn to read music, play the recorder or something, just not get inspired until later? That would be more credible.

Some gifted authors cite that if a child is consistently in this state of not having to do much - of working well below capability, that by the time they are 10 or so it's *that* much harder to undo, almost becomes a built-in character trait then. It's a scary thought.

My 5 year old son has been in this situation for nearly 2.5 years, and so far after 1 month of unschooling is still not ready to learn anything again. Just 2 and a bit years screwed him up royally. I am angry, sad, upset, emotional, anxious about it. I am also relieved that I trusted myself and found the information and strength required to take steps to un-do the damage. He is left with the thought that he "will never learn anything real in school" at the age of 5 how sad is that?

Collin's Mom - I will need to go try find them again. I read it in passing over the last few years. Start a new thread and I will post what I can find.

What I find remarkable is that when he did decide to study music, he went nonstop. So he put in his 10,000 hours all at once. Not all 19 year olds have that luxury.

Mmm, 10,000 hours is considerably more than there *are* in a year, even allowing no time for sleep... and he (supposedly) heard his first classical music ever at 18, and at 19 was studying at a conservatory! (I mean, clearly he made extraordinary progress in a short space of time if there is any shred of truth in the story, and 10,000 hours is a phrase not reality... but however much he practised in that year between deciding he wanted to do music as a career and starting to do it, he can't have put in the number of hours that is typical for people going off to study music full time by the time he did so, unless the story is very misleading.)

I did not say it did it within a year. And, you can get admitted to a conservatory like Peabody by showing potential, which he must have. It also would take a small percentage of time for an 18 year old to learn to read music compared to a 5 year old.

The guy obviously has innate talent but he also applied himself very vigorously when he found his passion. The problem is that most don't find a passion like this guy or Bill Gates where they get up at 3 in the morning to pursue it by any means.

I agree. I see this as a savant-like situation, and no one gets to the point where they can compose scores without setting pencil to paper until the entire piece is perfected, or play "with prodigious technique" without the need for any practice, or learn Icelandic in a week, or know what day of the week a given date falls on, through hard work and determination, or because of an enriched and supportive environment, or despite the lack of an enriched and supportive environment.