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    Wren #118762 12/22/11 08:15 PM
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    I consider myself an anti-theist. Because I hold this comparatively extreme view and because I take it very seriously (and find it a fascinating area to study), I have undertaken in-depth formal study in theology and philosophy of religion. I won't go in to my personal feelings about religion, because I don't think this is the place for it. However I did just want to say, for those who are interested, there is an excellent book called "Reading Philosophy of Religion", by Graham Oppy and Michael Scott that provides a very impartial look at both sides of the major arguments for and against monotheism and polytheism (Oppy is an athiest, but is very careful to show where atheistic arguments fail too). It's an excellent resource for tackling tricky questions (both for and against belief)

    I did just want to say that while I personally have very strong concerns about the role of religion in any society, I do feel that faith is a very personal thing, so I don't shove my own views down dd's throat, though I am perhaps not as impressively impartial as some here - though I also explain why people's faith is meaningful and important to them smile

    In terms of participating in traditions, dd has friends from a variety of different religious backgrounds and they tell her about their beliefs and their families include her in some of their traditions. As a result dd is part of lots of communities, experiences other people's traditions and we have our own traditions with friends and family - which are meaningful to us.


    "If children have interest, then education will follow" - Arthur C Clarke
    Wren #118765 12/22/11 08:31 PM
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    Worshiping the Greek gods in the modern age is called Hellenism. I have a friend in Florida who has been pagan for many years, but has been worshiping Hermes for the past few.

    Wren #118766 12/22/11 08:34 PM
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    Originally Posted by Wren
    I think I have to find more of a thinking church.... There has to be something that has a nice ritual for DD and tolerable from a teaching perspective.


    Episcopal Church. All of the ceremony, none of the guilt.

    Only thing is, the average age of the congregation has been travelling north for decades. Most of the time, Episcopal churches have to pool their youth among several congregations before they can achieve a critical mass.

    Wren #118770 12/22/11 08:52 PM
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    I really enjoyed this dime store fiction book depicting the Episcipalian "Old Guard" mentality "the last suppers" by diane mott davidson.


    Youth lives by personality, age lives by calculation. -- Aristotle on a calendar
    Val #118780 12/23/11 06:41 AM
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    Originally Posted by Val
    Ren,

    Have you looked into the Unitarian Universalists?

    In 2002 the Unitarians had the highest average SAT score, and the SAT is arguably an intelligence test. Here are some statistics from a blog post
    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2008/02/pentecostals-are-stupid-unitarians-are-smart/

    "Mean IQ of whites from General Social Survey by religious affiliation
    Episcopalian 109.9
    Lutheran 107.4
    Mormon 105.7
    Presbyterian 102.3
    United Methodist 101.8
    Southern Baptist 98.0
    Assembly of God 94.5
    Pentecostal 92.2

    Surprised? I hope you�re not so ignorant that you are! Here are the top 10 religious groups in SAT score from 2002:

    Average SAT score by religion for 2002, average ~1000, about 40% of each students take it

    Unitarian-Universalists 1209
    Judaism 1161
    Quakers 1153
    Hinduism 1110
    Mennonite 1097
    Reformed Church of America 1097
    Episcopal 1096
    Evangelical Lutheran Church 1094
    Presbyterian Church (USA) 1092
    Baha�i 1073"


    "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." - George Orwell
    Wren #118783 12/23/11 07:49 AM
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    I was led to believe that the SAT was no longer a useful measure of general intelligence since it was redesigned in 1994.

    Wren #118815 12/23/11 01:10 PM
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    Originally Posted by Wren
    I don't want to offend anyone's faith here but this is a real question.

    We discuss how our kids like to research stuff right? Well, since DH and I were both raised Catholic and DD turned 7, a mother mentioned "was DD taking first communion this year?" And we decided to go for it, as a cultural thing.

    Since we just started 2 weeks ago and she missed last year, we are doing remedial stuff and she has to do a quiz for every section. A bit hard for me since I didn't go to Catholic school and had 3 Cathecism classes before my first communion, but there is all this Creation stuff and Father and Son stuff. But what really is hard is the contradiction. Like there is a prayer that says that you will not call anyone father on earth, it is reserved for God, yet (aside from fathers) we always called the priest father etc. And if you really start to research, which DD is a little young for, but how the church developed, Paul being a very good marketer, the real research, you see it was developed more to control populations. And how do you explain these things while still letting her pass the tests to get her first communion?

    Part of me wants her to understand religion like any subject and you have to first understand why people believe. And please, I do have faith, just not the religious doctrine associated with any one faith. But like any holiday festival, it is a nice tradition.

    Contradiction of desires and thoughts here for DD. Appreciate anyone who has experience or input.

    Ren

    Hi everyone - please stay on topic in regards to the intent of the original post on this thread. We've all seen these types of threads veer off topic and I'd like to not have to shut it down if possible. smile

    Have a wonderful holiday season!

    Mark

    Wren #118818 12/23/11 05:42 PM
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    DS8 oops 9 (BDAY today) became very interested in religion while studying history. He took note of the fact that most of the wars were based on religion in one way or another.

    We are not a religious family, but I have always found peoples beliefs fascinating and my son seems to feel the same. He will eventually form his own opinion, until then he explores various belief systems and cultures.


    Shari
    Mom to DS 10, DS 11, DS 13
    Ability doesn't make us, Choices do!
    Wren #118819 12/23/11 05:56 PM
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    I met a guy about 20 years ago. The father was Jewish, the mother Catholic and he grew up with both. As an adult, he became interested in all religions and held this class and had a leading religious leader come and talk each week.

    I thought that was really interesting. He researched religion, just didn't follow in blind faith. And I know someone mentioned faith in the thread.

    I have heard of the Unitarians Val, and I thought of them. I think I went once or twice years ago. It is hard to kind of leave the whole thing because it is "our culture", historic culture. But that is not why you go to church. Hence, the path should be different. And DD is interested in the investigation. I know the Catholic doctrine won't work the long haul. But now I have stuck her in for 3 months and she is into the pomp and circumstance. Figure it will ride the wave.

    Funny, we were watching a Nova on Darwin and DNA that says we are decended from fish. So I said to her, "were Adam and Eve fish?" She was not amused. But seeing, several times, the fossils of that couple they found from million years ago, walking along, she has understood evoluation from preschool.

    Some things don't reconcile. What is that quote? "God was awfully fond of beetles" because there are a kazillion varieties.

    Ren

    Wren #118824 12/23/11 08:13 PM
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    I have read this entire thread.

    My thoughts are many and varied on this topic, and I take the matter very seriously.

    Saint Augustine wisely advised: "Never judge a philosophy by its abuse." Unfortunately, most people judge "religion" by its abuse, and they then inflict that judgment on their children.

    Twenty-eight years ago, I was diagnosed with an incurable life-threatening disease that had only a horrific unimaginable major surgery with an extremely poor prognosis for success as its possible treatment � a surgery that had as its best hope the mere possibility that the condition would not worsen. I contemplated suicide as a better alternative because the disease symptoms were intolerable, but I decided to go on a spiritual quest first � a most sincere, deeply heartfelt, and very motivated search for God. If I could not find God to my satisfaction (read: if God did not reveal God's Presence to me), I was done.

    Well, my spiritual quest � what I call my war experience � lasted fully two years, and those years were at times excruciating in every way imaginable. The dark night of the soul is pitch black and icy cold � just harrowing and unmercifully bleak. I would not wish what I went through on my very worst enemy, and I have truly hated a couple of people in my lifetime.

    But I can report to you with absolute certainty that the Presence of God is real in every sense of the word, including in the physical realm. Unfortunately, though, there is great sadness in that blessing because most people do not believe me.

    Ask yourself: If you actually physically encountered an angel, how many people who have known you for your whole life would believe your story? I can tell you the answer to that question is: "Almost no one." And that is the dilemma of religion.

    But the conundrum of it all is this: Explain the Jewish Passover celebration and its precise and elaborate story and rituals that have been faithfully repeated every year for thousands of years. Explain the conversion of the Pharisee Saul of Tarsus to become Saint Paul, a man who endured utter brutalities for his new-found faith. Explain the Pentecost event, how a cowering group of cowards suddenly became profoundly bold and courageous in their faith, despite having to eventually suffer terrible consequences as a result. None of those three explanations can make any sense at all unless you factor in an undeniable miracle � an intervention of the supernatural realms into our natural world.

    Children should not be denied the wonder of it all. Nor should the wonder of it all be diminished for them by those who judge a philosophy by its abuse. If you cannot know God, do not make the mistake of thinking that your children cannot know God. If your children know God, believe them, for they might have been visited by angels.

    The churches in our world generally fail in their work, especially when they ever imagine that their work depends solely on their own efforts, which is an imagination that is almost always standing in their way of getting things done. It is terribly sad. I attended a Lutheran parochial school from first grade through eighth grade, and I would not teach God the way I was taught God. Somehow by the grace of God my faith survived anyway, though almost all of my siblings have become hostile atheists. Such is my fate.

    My more precise thoughts can be read at:
    http://steven-a-sylwester.blogspot.com/2011/01/revealed-truth-love-god-science.html#

    But I am not one who is opposed to science. In fact, I champion science, and am doing my very utmost to fund STEM education in America's K-12 public schools. Please read:
    http://steven-a-sylwester.blogspot.com/2011/12/this-deserves-macarthur-genius-award.html
    Also read: http://school-usa-proposal.blogspot.com/

    Whatever you do, do not mock God. If you must, just turn and walk away � be a prodigal to your heart's content. In the story of The Prodigal Son, the dutiful son � perhaps the church-going son � was the greater disappointment to the father, and was the son who had the most to learn. Remember that.

    Steven A. Sylwester

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