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    Joined: Jul 2011
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    Originally Posted by Deonne
    I was never identified as gifted as a child and I never really considered myself that bright. When I was about 25 I decided that I was the type of person that should go to college. It took me 5 years because I took short periods off to work full time for money to continue but I graduated just a month short of my 31st birthday. I started law school when I was 34. I had a baby when I was 35. I started working as a lawyer at 37 when my DS was almost 2.

    I know that I would have gotten much more out of college if I was going to college now as opposed to going there straight out of high school from a purely intellectual perspective and from a social perspective. I was extremely immature and didn't adjust well at all in college. That was coupled with my mother dying of cancer while I was in college and my father suffering a debilitating stroke while I was in law school. All in all, my college experience was pretty horrible, but that was mostly my fault for not being able to deal with things either at home or at school at the time.

    I took the "check out of life" option during college and law school. Partially because it was the first time in my life I was actually challenged. I note that it's not a good idea to consider your life over and simply wait around for your life to end. I tried that. From experience, I note that there are no actual benefits from that approach. Except you can collect degrees without learning much of anything.

    Check out of life? Bad idea.

    Engage life? Good idea.

    If you want to go to college, Island, I agree with Deonne, you can pretty much go whenever you want to go and ultimately do whatever you feel like doing, but everything takes time.

    But, remember. Law school is generally a bad idea.

    Law school? Bad. Unless you really really love law and know what you are getting into.

    Med school? Usually good idea. Radiation oncology? Lots and lots of $$$. Dermatology? Lots and lots of $$$. Cardiology? Severe stomach ulceration and burnout. Psychiatry? Well, you don't have to work long hours or operate.

    Dental school? Usually good idea.

    Ph.D.? Generally worse than med school, better than law school.

    (All these opinions are based on the outcomes that I've noticed in my family, in-laws, friends, and clients)

    And if you go to grad school, make sure you have an interest in the area first. Don't just randomly pick something.

    If you want to go into an intellectually rigorous specialty, you probably need to spend 5 to 10 years working in the field (with relatively long hours) until you get to the point where you are an expert and can push the boundaries of the field forward.

    My wife's been a SAHM for 9 years (she's 33 now). Although she went to college, she wants to be a teacher, so she now needs to go back and get the education credits she needs to actually be certified to teach. She's looking for a teacher's aide position at the moment. It's only now that our two kids are both in school that she feels the need to get an actual job rather than a "play" part-time job.

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    I just wanted to come back and reply to this.
    I've checked back a few times and I am finding this thread to be very helpful and inspiring - but grounding, too.

    I know I do need to be willing to put in the effort to get the rewards, and I also see I'm going to have to do some accepting when it comes to how life IS, now.

    I can also plan to do things later if I want. Life isn't over (though my mom drilled it into my sister and I that life IS over when you have children!)

    And about depression... I've been extremely depressed in my life before and this doesn't feel like it is coming close to that. I have my moments, but I'm definitely not suicidal or anything. I did go to therapy before and it helped a lot. I don't really want to go back to that at the moment, though.

    My husband is finishing up school soon, so before he starts again he is giving me lots of time to work on my business. I spent all weekend working and the mornings so far this week. I feel so good about it. Really... getting to work makes me feel so wonderful and I feel rejuvenated. I wouldn't like working outside the home, though.

    And in another thread someone mentioned that dad and baby need their time together, too. I've noticed DD is so much more attached to DH now and I think them spending so much time together is really great for them. So... I don't have to feel too guilty (yay!)

    (On the other hand... DH ignores her more than I do and he plays too many video games. But I'm happy to have my break.)

    I think this thread was very helpful and I'm sure I will come back to it in the future! wink Thank you all!

    Last edited by islandofapples; 09/13/11 08:40 PM.
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    Yes. All the time. This is where Dabrowski's theory of positive disintegration comes in. Now I have to actually do something about it! If you have not read Living with Intensity I would strongly suggest it. Now to read the whole thread.

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    Originally Posted by islandofapples
    (On the other hand... DH ignores her more than I do and he plays too many video games. But I'm happy to have my break.)

    If there's one thing I would recommend in life, it would be to not play video or computer games. Particularly when you are playing games when you should be focusing on living life instead.

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    This is where I think Dabrowski's theory is relevant in situations like the OP describes...

    http://positivedisintegration.com/brief.htm

    "A basic premise of Dabrowski�s theory is that most people commonly experience an initial primary integration characterized by the adoption of prevailing social standards and mores. The average person accepts and lives by these external social mores with little question or conflict. Spurred by developmental potential, exemplary individuals come into conflict when their developing internal values and perceptions clash with the external views and mores they had previously inculcated. These individuals go through periods Dabrowski described as positive disintegration that challenge and eventually disintegrate the primary integration and lead to periods of deep reflection and soul-searching. Positive disintegration culminates in the emergence of an internally generated hierarchy of values, aims and goals. Ultimately a unique personality ideal emerges, representing the kind of person the individual wishes to strive to become. Advanced development is described as a secondary integration characterized by a comfortable adherence to one�s own unique values, goals and ideals.

    Dabrowski presents a theory of personality development based on his observation that most people live their lives guided by their biological impulses (generally self-interest) and/or by uncritical adherence to social convention. Dabrowski also described a group of people who display an individualized developmental pathway. These people break away from a rote, unreflective view of life (what Dabrowski described as "negative adjustment") to develop an individualized, critically evaluated value structure ("positive adjustment"). This hierarchy of values comes to act as a benchmark by which all things are seen. Advanced development is possible because these people possess higher than average "developmental potentials." Developmental potential is a constellation of genetic features, expressed through environmental interaction that consists of three major aspects: overexcitability (OE), specific abilities and talents, and a strong drive toward autonomous growth, a feature that Dabrowski called the third factor...

    Ultimately, the individual is literally thrust into a void: their social rationales fail to account for their experiences and no alternate explanations are satisfactory. During this phase, existential despair is the predominant emotion. The developmental resolution of this phase begins as emergent individual values of the "new" personality increasingly encounter and conflict with the person's previous socialization. The "status quo" explanations for the "way things are," transmitted through education and by the social order collapse under conscious scrutiny. A series of conflicts commonly results as the individual increasingly questions the causes of their reactions within the world at large. The actions of others and the ethics of the prevailing social order become seen as inadequate, wrong or hypocritical. "Positive maladjustment" prevails. For Dabrowski, these crises represent the potential for personal growth as mental health reflects more than social conformity, it involves a careful, personal examination of the world and of one's values leading to the development of an individual and unique personality. In Dabrowski�s theory, personality only emerges when individual values ("what ought to be") find their voice and replace the "what is" of life. Personality is a "self aware, self chosen, self affirmed, and self determined unity of essential individual psychic qualities" (Dabrowski, 1972, p. 301). Mental health is represented by an individual who has carefully and thoughtfully chosen his or her values and ideals in terms of the kind of person he or she ought to try to be. These individual values become hierarchical -- our highest values are our goals, often existing in conflict with lower values that characterize our earlier function and our prevailing social order.

    Dabrowski used to say that you must either fall back, move ahead or end negatively (suicide / psychoses).

    The transition from level II to level III is a fundamental shift that requires a phenomenal amount of energy. This period is the critical juncture in development as from here one must either progress or regress. This transition is an awkward and complicated idea, for one thing, Dabrowski saw it as a process that could either occur all at once or that could occur incrementally. First and Second Factors are both targets of the conflict in these crises: "Do I follow my instincts (First Factor), my teachings (Second Factor) or my heart (Third Factor)?" The developmental answer is to listen to your heart, transform your instincts into positive features (e.g. motivation) and to resist rote, social answers. This whole developmental process, occurring in the context of disintegration -- a very chaotic period, sweeps you along and as it does, it changes you and your view of life.

    Level III describes the vertical conflicts caused by an involuntary perception of the higher versus lower choices in life (because it is involuntary Dabrowski called it spontaneous multilevel disintegration). Dabrowski called this vertical dimension multilevelness. With multilevelness comes a new and powerful type of conflict. Multilevelness is a gradual realization of the "possibility of the higher" (a phrase Dabrowski used frequently) and of the subsequent contrasts between the higher and the lower aspects of life. These vertical comparisons often illustrate the lower, actual behaviour of a person in contrast to higher, imagined ideals and alternative choices. When a person perceives the higher choice, he or she feels that this is obviously the path one ought to follow. When the person's actual behaviour falls short of the ideal, disharmony and a drive to review and reconstruct one's life often follow.

    If the person is to achieve Dabrowski�s higher levels, this shift to multilevelness must occur. If a person does not have the developmental potential to move into a multilevel view, then they would fall back from the crises of level II to reintegrate at level I.

    In the shift to multilevelness, the "horizontal" (unilevel), stimulus response model of life is replaced by a vertical and hierarchical experience of life. This vertical view influences a person's developing value structure and all events come to be seen in relation to personal ideals. These personal value ideals become a coherent entity -- the personality ideal: an inner vision of how the person wants to live their life and the kind of person one wants to become. As events in life are seen in relation to this multilevel, vertical view, it becomes impossible to support positions that favour the lower course when higher goals can be identified (or imagined).

    In level IV the individual takes control of their development. The involuntary spontaneous development of level III is replaced by a deliberate, conscious and self directed review of life from the multilevel perspective. This level marks the emergence of "the third factor," described by Dabrowski as an autonomous factor "of conscious choice (valuation) by which one affirms or rejects certain qualities in oneself and in one's environment" (Dabrowski, 1972, p. 306). The person consciously reviews their existing belief system and tries to replace their lower, automatic views and reactions with carefully thought out, examined and chosen ideals. These "new" values will increasingly be reflected in the person's behaviour. Behaviour becomes less reactive, less automatic, and more deliberate and volitional as behavioural choices increasingly fall under the influence of the person's higher, chosen ideals.

    All of these stages of disintegration represent extreme conflict. Traditional therapeutic approaches have been to palliate conflict in an attempt to quickly return the person to the state of "normal" functioning. Dabrowski advanced a more sophisticated approach based on a comprehensive diagnosis. Dabrowski said that half of the therapy process involved a complete diagnosis of a person's developmental potentials, not simply a review of their symptoms. When severe symptoms are seen in people with significant potential, the approach is to encourage the person to "see the crisis through" and to reframe the psychoneurosis in positive terms - hence Dabrowski's 1972 book title "Psychoneurosis is Not an Illness." In cases where developmental potential is low, Dabrowski advocated a palliative approach to crises and a return to the former stability. In people with strong DP, there is transformative potential for suffering - dis-ease causes us to search for "higher level" solutions. In this context, suffering has a positive role in human psychology. It is through our own suffering that we develop empathy for others and understand our own interdependence on others and our mortality. This causes a review of our basic values and, as mentioned above, ideally leads to the development of autonomous values...

    The fifth level also displays an integrated and harmonious character, but one vastly different from that at the first level. At this highest level, one's behaviour is guided by conscious, carefully weighed decisions based upon an individualized and chosen hierarchy of personal values. Behaviour conforms to this inner standard of how life "ought" to be lived and thus, little inner conflict arises in one's life.

    The Theory of Positive Disintegration has an extremely broad scope and has implications for many areas. One central application is the way that psychology and psychiatry frame crises and disintegration... Rather than trying to eliminate symptoms, they are reframed to yield insight and understanding into life and the person's unique situation...

    Dabrowski�s theory describes a way of looking at life, outlining the experience of life through the energies of overexcitability and multilevelness. The theory describes various consequences of this experience, positive disintegration and personality growth among them. In this sense, Dabrowski is often discovered and understood by those who are in the midst of the developmental process. The concepts of multilevelness and overexcitability are often not easy to appreciate by those who do not experience them first hand. The theory is best understood through being lived and through personal introspection of one's experiences and feelings as one goes through the steps of advanced development.

    In summary, Dabrowski presents a theory of personality development describing how a small number of individuals will go through a process involving a series of disintegrations and subsequent reintegrations leading to the development of an autonomous personality. This process, which is more detailed than suggested here, involves a fundamental tearing apart of the existing reality function to allow for construction of a reality function and "new coordinating elements" on a new (higher) level (see Dabrowski, 1972, p. 224). In this way, a person can apply conscious self development to transcend their genotype, overcome rote socialization, and to consciously become the authentic human being they choose to be."


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    Originally Posted by deacongirl
    Ultimately, the individual is literally thrust into a void: their social rationales fail to account for their experiences and no alternate explanations are satisfactory. During this phase, existential despair is the predominant emotion.

    ...

    Dabrowski used to say that you must either fall back, move ahead or end negatively (suicide / psychoses).

    I think despair has been my predominant emotion since about 1993.

    No suicide or psychosis, though. Can't say that I fell back or moved ahead.

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    Originally Posted by deacongirl
    describing how a small number of individuals will go through a process involving a series of disintegrations and subsequent reintegrations leading to the development of an autonomous personality. This process, which is more detailed than suggested here, involves a fundamental tearing apart of the existing reality function to allow for construction of a reality function and "new coordinating elements"

    John Boyd wrote as much.

    Here is the right essay.

    http://www.goalsys.com/books/documents/DESTRUCTION_AND_CREATION.pdf

    Kuhn had the same approach, too.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions




    Last edited by Austin; 09/15/11 12:53 PM.
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    I guess I realized a long time ago that living up to my potential would make me miserable. I chose happiness instead. I always tried to balance my life, and prevent any one element from consuming too much time and energy. When I was studying engineering, I was also dating, exercising, creating relationships, playing music, reading for enjoyment, etc. I didn't dedicate myself to my studies enough to make straight A's, and I definitely put a precedence on learning the material rather than maintaining a high GPA, so if an assignment didn't seem like it would increase my knowledge, I didn't spend a lot of time on it.

    After getting a BS, I got a job. I chose a job that wouldn't consume me. I purposely picked a field I wasn't intensely interested in. I put in my 40 hours, and go home. My fulfillment lies elsewhere. I met the most amazing woman and spent a lot of my time with her. We got married, and started a family.

    Now I have thrown balance out the window. Now my kids are the focus of my life. I make every decision with their best interests in mind.

    A friend of mine from school went down a different path. He got a phd, and started his own business. I just celebrated my 5 year anniversary, and he's going to get married next year. I have 2 kids, and he's been traveling the world giving lectures. His fiancee isn't younger than him. She doesn't have a lot of child bearing years left. They'll be lucky to have 1 child.

    When I compare my life to his, I just hope that he gets to experience the joy of fatherhood like I have.

    I know I'm not going to make a huge impact on the world like this, but I don't care. I don't think the world has any right to my potential. The world gets as much as I'm willing to share.

    Maybe after my kids leave home, and I have some money saved for retirement I'll think about making my mark. Or maybe I'll just spend that time with friends and family. I'll just have to see how I feel.

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    Originally Posted by DAD22
    Maybe after my kids leave home, and I have some money saved for retirement I'll think about making my mark.

    Loving your children, spending time with them and making them a priority in your life will leave more of a mark on the world than you think. Your children are your legacy!


    Tomorrow is always fresh, with no mistakes in it. — L.M. Montgomery
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    Originally Posted by DAD22
    I guess I realized a long time ago that living up to my potential would make me miserable. I chose happiness instead. I always tried to balance my life, and prevent any one element from consuming too much time and energy. When I was studying engineering, I was also dating, exercising, creating relationships, playing music, reading for enjoyment, etc. I didn't dedicate myself to my studies enough to make straight A's, and I definitely put a precedence on learning the material rather than maintaining a high GPA, so if an assignment didn't seem like it would increase my knowledge, I didn't spend a lot of time on it.

    My problem was that I was so broken in college that I basically avoided the actual activities of living. I had no interest in the material, but an extreme interest in winning the GPA race. In fact, my only goal was to "win". Anything I learned or experienced was merely a byproduct of the goal of intellectually smashing my competition, and letting them know they had been bested by someone inherently superior, as I had done in high school. I didn't give any thought to "balancing my life" or even given any thought to life being something other than a game to win. Once I realized that I had failed in my goal (a 3.5 or so my first year), my life was pretty much drained of meaning, so I withdrew into my mausoleum and waited patiently for my life to end and the pain of existence to cease. I kept making halfhearted efforts to function, but my life no longer had a mainspring to drive me.

    Now, I have children, family, and a stable job, however these are the results of my profound failure in life, not evidence of any kind of success. I never intended to be imprisoned in a simple family life, but here I am.

    When I hear of other's successes, it always feels like someone has punched me in the stomach, because it reminds me that my life ended a long time ago.

    It's very hard to engage your family when you feel completely ruined and are devoid of any kind of purpose.

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