Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Wildly discrepant SB-5 and WISC-IV results: Help?

Hi,

Can anyone help me make sense of my dd's two extremely different scores on the SB5 (high) and the WISC-IV (Way Lower)? The second set of scores, using the WISC-IV, this year, come from a full neuropsych eval triggered by teacher reporting she is struggling with math and work completion. Processing Speed will jump out at you.

I guess my question is: she seemed super smart across the board on the SB-5, with an exception or two. She seemed average on the WISC-IV, with an exception or two. What is going on here? Freakin' me out...

I'll just put them out here for you to see:

SB-5 (one year ago, age 5.8)(she did report "panicking" when she knew a test was timed and then her brain "melted"):

FSIQ = 134
Verbal IQ = 135
Nonverbal IQ = 131

Subtests:

Fluid Reasoning = Nonverbal: 18; Verbal: 17

Knowledge = Nonverbal: 17; Verbal: 15

Quantitative Reasoning = Nonverbal: 11;Verbal: 17)

Visual Spatial Processing = Nonverbal: 15; Verbal: 14

Working memory = Nonverbal: 13; Verbal: 15


NOW, the WISC-IV (taken 1 month ago age: 6.8):

FSIQ= 110 (!?)
GAI= 121
Verbal Compehension= 128
Perceptual Reasoning= 108
Working Memory= 107
Processing Speed= 80

Subtest Scores:

Similarities= 14
Vocabulary= 17
Comprehension= 13

Block Design= 10
Picture Concepts= 10
Matrix Reasoning= 14

Digit Span= 10
Letter NUmber= 13

Coding= 6
Symbol Search= 7

Now for those of you who wonder about the WJ3 Ability:

Processing Speed: 94
Visual Matching: 92
Decision Speed: 100
Retrieval Fluency: 78

WJ3 Achievement:

Highest scores:

Basic Reading Skills: 116
Word Attack: 117

Lowest:

Written Expression: 96
Academic Fluency: 93

Want more? WRAML-11:

Highest:

Design Recognition: 16

Lowest:

Story Memory Retention: 4

The WJ scores certainly line up better with the WISC than the SB, but beyond that I'm at a loss too.

I can understand having some confusion. Whenever I think about scores, I remember that they reflect a very limited performance on a specific day, so I trust what the child shows more than what the scores show.

SBV can score pretty high for young kids and if other results don't support those scores, I'd worry it was an outlier not reflective of the child. What does she seem like at home? If she's relaxed and not pressured for time, how does she handle math concepts? Do you have any suspicions of LD? Do her teachers?

While the WISC and SBV differ overall, the verbal parts aren't that different and pretty close to margin of error. The PRI is lower on the WISC and that could be due to many things. Was one of the lower PRI tests the first test administered? Is she shy and slow to warm up? Was she nervous and more reticent to express herself verbally than she was a year ago?

The speed tests aren't really assessed on the SBV in the same way, so those scores are additional information. It looks like speed is an issue for her. Does that seem true as you observe her? I'm not a testing expert, but I believe all the tests with "fluency" are about timed performance in the achievement tests. These are below average and that would certainly be unusual for someone with her other scores, especially the VCI. Do you think she was just nervous or do you notice speed issues at home? I once had a child test lower in speed than I expected. The psych said he was talking to her the entire time as he did the test and barely paying attention to it. In real life, he just doesn't have any speed issues, so I could ignore that info. If your DD struggles with speed, then she may need some help and longer time for exams, and some intervention. Did you get the full psych report yet? Any suggestions for concerns or further testing?

Thanks Kaibab, you raised some really good questions!

I can answer them!

DD6 is a delightful sprite of a girl. She is highly verbal, likes to wonder about big concepts like what keeps the clouds up in the sky.

She has a remarkable memory for words and songs. She has an impressive vocabulary and has pitch perfect pronunciation the first time. She can sing a song perfectly from memory after she's heard it several times, even a long time ago. Likewise with information she's found very interesting...she can recite it with feeling, almost verbatim for about 5 minutes (lectures on human anatomy, Rosa Parks, etc.)

I left this out originally, but here is the absent headline from the rest of the eval: it does look like (according to testing) there is some phonological-type dyslexia, dysgraphia, and potentially some ADD-attention-type going on. Her performance in her FT GT school was what got us to do the neuropsych eval. She was struggling with math and slow to finish her work. Writing is laborious for her.

Her test taking behavior was the other wildly discrepant issue. During the first test she was fully engaged, focused, eager and persistent (an excellent, experienced psychologist who specialized in GT kids). During the second test she was anxious due to the timing, yawned frequently, needed a lot of breaks, had to be refocused frequently, etc. (This tester was young, nice, but rather monotone and had a concerned deameanor.)

I think tester rapport was a confounding issue, as was the timed nature of the WISC subtests. I think, also, her experience in class this year has shaped a fear of timing, plus some coping mechanisms resulting in tuning out when she doesn't understand the large group verbal lecture to independent worksheet format in math.

We did more testing with an LD expert (great rapport and attention again, with him...he had her laughing, and relaxed). Her reading scores were all "average", but her listening comprehension scores were 96th %ile.

She is probably reading and doing math about 2 standard deviations below her general ability.

From what I understand (is this true?), Fluid Reasoning is thought to be the best indicator of giftedness on the SB5? This was 144. Could it be that some learning issues are confounding things here?

I'm also intrigued by whether or not she might be more of a visual-spatial learner, or right brained...although her visual spatial ability wasn't the biggest strength. But I don't know how these concepts translate into subtest scores and have found no correlational discussion of this on the net...

Thank again!

Susan

It looks like she is more of a verbal learner (VCI 128 vs PRI 108), although she scored high on the Matrix Reasoning subtest (14) of the PRI. Her good listening skills also point to strong verbal skills. WISC processing speed weighs heavy on visual motor skills - how is her handwriting - could this be an area that slows her down during academic tasks? On the WJcog her processing speed was much higher - I would want to hear from the evaluator how the tests differ - this could give you an idea of relative strengths and weakness in the processing realm. Her retrieval fluency was quite low - I'm not sure exactly what this measures - it sounds like it might be a rapid naming test (person is shown line drawings, colors, numbers and must name them as quickly as possible). These confrontation naming tests often predict word finding problems, reading fluency issues and the ability to do rote skills such as math facts.

Her word attack skills which measure her ability to use the sound symbol relationships to sound out words was solid at 117. WJ is not timed - it would be interesting to see if she scored the same on a similar test that uses a time constraint (Test of Word Reading Efficiency). Based on this one score, it appears her phonological skills are intact, but if you are concerned about reading, I would want to see more testing including the TOWRE as mentioned before, Grey Oral Reading and CTOPP.

Has she been diagnosed with ADHD? Was she on medication for any of the testing? I have seen some children post vastly different scores with medication vs without - especially in the areas of processing speed and memory.

Finally - while the scores are different between the SB and WISC, remember that the VCI and PRI are the two subtests that measure thinking or abstract reasoning skills. Her scores for these are strong - not quite "gifted", but she is clearly bright. Also, younger children develop in fits and spurts. Their test scores can vary widely from year to year, and tend to stabilize once in middle school. Usually the "patterns" remain the same, but sometime the overall composite score can vary by a number of points.

Hi Mich,

Thank you so much for your really helpful parsing of these subtests and their potential indications! I will print out your comments and bring them to our meeting with her original SB5 evaluator (she may not be as familiar with the WISC), I imagine they could be helpful. At this point I would really like to understand her learning style better...as we're trying to figure out how to match her learning environment and approaches to: her.

So it sounds like you see a pattern more consistent with a verbal learner rather than a visual-spatial or right brained learner?

They did do a Grey Oral, she really tanked. The second tester got scores:

Fluency= 6
Reading Rate= 6
Reading Accuracy= 5
Oral Reading Quotient= 73


Since you wondered, CTOPP scores were:

Elision= 10
Blending Words= 13
Rapid Color Naming= 9
Rapid Object Naming= 8

Standard Scores:

Phonological Awareness= 109
Rapid Naming= 91

For an even MORE complete picture, here are scores and a partial explanation of findings from the 3rd tester who drilled down on reading issues.

On the Kaufman Test of Educational Achievement-2



Letter and Word Recognition, standard score 99, 47th percentile

Nonsense Word Decoding, standard score 102, 55th percentile

Phonological Awareness, standard score 86, 18th percentile (this subtest evaluates skills related to learning to read and require her to rhyme words, break words down into individual sounds or phonemes, and repeat words after omitting individual sounds. She made a few errors on the Segmenting and Deleting Sounds portions of this subtest which resulted in her low average score

Written Expression, standard score 104, 61st percentile

Test of Written Spelling � 4, standard score 95, 37th percentile

Listening Comprehension � Standard score 126, 96th percentile

Gray Oral Reading Tests -4; I only gave her the reading fluency part, so I didn�t ask her the comprehension questions. She obtained a Fluency score of 7 at the 16th percentile, which is in the low average range.


She's not been diagnosed with ADHD or ever been medicated. It was just that the 2nd tester who did the recent full neuropsych eval thought she saw a lot of signs of it during testing and recommended immediately starting medication. However, the first, year ago IQ tester, and the 3rd, follow-up reading disorder tester saw no signs of it. So...dunno. I am taking the ADHD dx with a grain of salt. I'd like to tackle LD's, and change school environments first to see what happens.

Medication is such a big deal...yikes.

What kinds of changes are you considering with the school environment?
I agree that dealing with the LDs is important, but as big a deal as medication is, I think it's a smaller deal than dropping down from an appropriate program (if the program is in fact appropriate for your DD.)

Summer is coming, and I'm wondering if you were planning to do some catching up in Math with her during the summer with something like Aleks.com on the computer. Not so much for her benefit, but for you to get a 'close up and personal' view of what learning is like for your DD. I'm also going to recommend that you find a time to listen to spoken word books as a family so that she can move ahead with developing a love of literature while she is working out the kinks in her reading skills. Jim Dale's audio of Harry Potter was much beloved in our family.

How is your DD's vision? Has it been checked by a behavioral optometrist? They find things that the regular optomologists don't. (If these things are real or not is another thread, but many children appear to have benefitted.) Hard to read when one can't track or see the words.


Happy Mother's Day,
Grinity

susanic,
Thanks for posting the additional scores - they help clarify things!

It does look like there could be some kind of reading issue emerging. At her age, it is still hard to tell, but the GORT fluency scores are quite low and she also has a relative weakness in the area of rapid naming. Rapid naming skills are often connected to fluency - the speed and accuracy that one reads. Lower fluency can cause trouble in later years with comprehension and work completion.

Her phonological scores on CTOPP seem ok, as do her Kaufman reading scores. It seems that that the struggle is more around the fluency/processing aspect of reading - and we saw that in cognitive testing too. Her spelling was a relative weakness - and this is often a tell tale sign of difficulty with some aspects of phonological processing (decoding and encoding are connected).

Tell us a bit about her oral expression skills. Does she sometimes have trouble finding the right the word, and or substituting a word or description of a word when speaking? How is she at reciting the days of week, months of the year, reciting in order starting at say June? Often times, children with fluency issues have trouble with these rote tasks. It is not a lack of knowledge - instead a difficulty with storage and retrieval. In later grades this can impact reading, writing, and math computation.

I again see strengths in verbal reasoning - look at the listening comprehension score. I would suspect that she would do well on the GORT comprehension test. Did they administer the Kaufman comprehension test? I would bet her score was solid.

Like the cognitive testing - reading evaluations can be a bit unreliable and changeable at her age. My profoundly dyslexic son scored fairly well on certain reading tests at age 6. But as early as age 7, his scores began to tank. If you think about what they are expected to know and do at 6 years old, there isn't a lot. "the race" just started, and it hasn't been very long - so it is hard to get very far behind. I would keep a close eye to be sure that she continues to progress as expected - to keep an eye on fluency issues - and to make sure that her reading skills reflect her amazing verbal reasoning abilities.

And - let me be clear that I can not diagnose anyone with a reading disability. I am just a mom and special ed advocate that has seen a lot of evaluation reports and kids. Your child has some very good strengths - but the relative weaknesses in the areas of processing, fluency and rapid naming are worth keeping an eye on. If you notice ANY trouble at school with table top tasks, I would be right on top of it. She is bright - and I would hate to see her feel otherwise if a disability is in her way.

As far as the ADHD - this is tricky. ADHD and learning disabilities often are comorbid. But, LD's can often look like ADHD. With my son, we chose to treat the LD's first, try things such as vision therapy and OT before considering ADHD. As it turns out, he does have ADHD-inattentive. AND - medication is very important to his overall remediation. It helps him take advantage of remedial instruction in a way that he is not able without medication. I wish I had addressed attention sooner. But, I felt I had to rule out other "look alikes" first. It is not an easy diagnosis to make - and very emotionally loaded - at least for me.

Here is a great article that can get you started:
http://www.greatschools.org/special-education/LD-ADHD/743-reading-disorder-or-developmental-lag.gs
Also - if you like to read, I suggest
Over Coming Dyslexia http://www.amazon.com/Overcoming-Dyslexia-Complete-Science-Based-Problems/dp/0375400125
Straight Talk About Reading
http://www.amazon.com/Straight-Talk...mp;s=books&qid=1304941257&sr=1-1

Best of luck!!

You guys are amazing. I am so touched by your generous thoughtfulness about my daughter! I want to follow up and let you know the latest changes in her life. DD turned 7 in August.

2 big things have happened for the good:

We got her hooked up with a Barton method reading tutor for her dyslexia. She did 4 weeks/5 days a week over the summer. It turned her from a non-reader, at the end of 1st grade, into a fluent reader at the beginning of 2nd grade. We continue with this private tutor 2 x per week. And DD's confidence and happiness in reading has skyrocketed. So has her performance.

2. We were luckily able to switch her out of her very conventional GT immersion public school in the midwest, to a less conventional Quaker Friends school here where they are able to linger over and go more in-depth into their studies. From the first week, she was a markedly different child.

The GT specialist psychologist who was seeing her to unravel the math and performance anxiety that had developed in her GT school, pronounced her anxiety-free after a month after switching schools.

It has been a total transformation from an un-characteristically scared, frozen, non-performing child in the GT, high pressure, rapid paced public school; into an amazingly confident, math-enjoying, outgoing, happy girl. This school is able to take the time to allow children to marinate in their thoughts and interests.

Their faculty is also of a fairly intellectual, well-educated bent.

She is so happy.:) It would be interesting to see how this unwinding of performance anxiety would impact her testing.

I may take her back for a follow-up SB-5 at some point.

So far, so good.

Thank you!