Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion I need help, please... Discipline issues

We had a rough year switching from public to catholic with DS7. So he is a bit older than your son. He was coming home with note after note "not behaving" "playing with pencils" "said the word suck" etc. I would then punish him at home by taking the DS away or computer away etc. It was not working. Finally I though the poor kid gets punished enough at school and here I am punishing him on top of that and he is only more upset and more angry. I decided to reward the good instead of punishing the bad. He loves after school, it costs $20 a day so we don't normally do it. I told him if he is good all week he can go to after school on Friday. It was a miracle. It has been almost 2 months with not one single note! He said he loves after school so much he would do anything for it. Maybe you can try to reward the good instead of punishing the bad. I am still amazed how it is working.

We were on our way to see a $150 an hour therapist for advice! So we saved a ton of money on our own LOL!

My DS7 has a tendency to react, then think. In an effort to get this moving in the other direction, we instituted "ground hog day". When he makes one of his instant, not thought out choices, I stop him and ask him if he'd like to try a "do over". The second time he generally makes a much better choice and the situation never escalates. Depending on the situation, we will often discuss what went wrong the first time. It has taken some time but I have definitely seen improvement in his behavior. More and more he is thinking first, then reacting.

To second a comment up above, we were told by a psychologist when D was about 5 that he did not believe she had Aspergers. But at age 15, we recently had a psychologist tell us our D probably DOES have it. He was testing for other things and did not do the actual testing needed for a formal diagnosis, but after reading up on it after he brought it up, I think he is right. We have not pursued the formal diagnosis yet, but probably will so we have it if she wants to request accomodations in college. Her current (private) school is great about accomodations already, so we just haven't had a need for the formal diagnosis. But my point is really that even a psychologist can miss this diagnosis in a 5 year old, so I would at least get a 2nd opinion beyond your pediatrician. Maybe it is not what is going on with your son, of course, but it if is it explains a lot!

You guys are so awesome & helpful, thanks a million! We have a lot of work to do, that's for sure. I'm all for it, and thankfully my husband and I see pretty much eye to eye when it comes to discipline.

I really, really appreciate everything.

I tried to find help on this subject before it became a problem. �Too late! �It became a problem a few weeks ago.
My mother said the same as the yahoo article. �Spanking are over quickly, take away everything and I can daydream, LoL. �I want to have a modern family where I use logic and reason and education as discipline. �I lived with the hippys in Woodstock for 7 years because I love peace. �I live in Texas where everybody agrees I'm crazy because I refused to spank a baby before he turns two (by then it's too late, they say).
I try to do like onthegomom says and try to avoid power struggles, while still expecting good behaviour. For the most part this works. �But he's not always going to be home with me- karate starts next year, pre-k the year after. �They won't make special exceptions for one kid needing too much class time because his mom's a hippy. �I'm afraid because of "gifted intensities", I'm seeing that they're called now. �They always just said about me, I would over-react. �
This behaviour that just started: �He doesn't want to do what he's told. �(like put on your seatbelt, go change your undies you peed in them, things he knows he has to do). To the point of crying and arguing. �I know developmentally three is the age of working out independance. �I bribed him with "potty candy" (1 m&m) and he handles his own bathroom schedule. �I let him use a knife to cut his dinner. �"teach the children, let them lead the way," etc...but when he needs boundries he's showing that he's my son. �Long ago if he threw a toy against the wall when he was sent to his room I would put it on top of the fridge, until he started throwing toys then bring them to me to take away as punishment. �I'm afraid of power struggles making him stronger, making him more than the teachers can handle. �I'm not going to let him just do what he wants either.�
Here's a quote from "how to talk so your kids will listen" book that sums up my fears:
" � � The use of punishment only helps the child to develop a greater power of resistance and defiance�and
The child may learn how to avoid successfully any guilt feelings for bad behavior by setting up a cycle in which the punishment cancels the �crime�. "
Greater resistance and defiance, whee. My mother was strict. �My sisters and I were exceptionally well behaved. �When I didn't comply it was always intense. �
There's also the gifted sense of right and justice. �My son has always been one to fix things he saw wrong around the house. �If he's done eating and I'm not in the kitchen he insists I put his dish in the sink immediately (he can't do that because he broke a dish). �It bothers him if things aren't right, and he's got good observation skills. �This is a discipline problem because the world ain't gonna conform to his standards. �And with his logic and reasoning then, why should he comply every time? �Except to avoid punishment, which I've said I'm afraid might lead to greater intensity and defiance. �I can tell he's a lot like me. �He's going to be a truly good person to the core. �When there's conflict I don't want it to look like he's over-reacting when he feels he's doing what needs to be done.
My husband thinks strict discipline. �Make them cry now or they'll make you cry later. �I don't know. �I saw problems resulting from this approach in my own childhood and given how we three turned out I quiestion the long-term effectiveness. �I've tried to explain to my husband, "I am different from anyone, my kids will be different than your kids friends." �He knows my life history. �It's an unusual story. �I can't seem to find any resources on effective discipline and gifted kids. �Surely that's just as important as an IEP, and just as challenging.

Re: "The use of punishment only helps the child to develop a greater power of resistance and defiance", it sounds like a bunch of hippie nonsense to me. ;D

Regarding the avoidance of guilty feelings for bad behavior, I suppose that is a risk. You don't want your kid turning into a sneak, behaving badly when he thinks he can avoid punishment. It's tough, but you have to use all your knowledge of your individual kid to help you teach good values, empathy, etc. It's a long process, and it may seem like slow going with a gifted kid because of the difference between intellectual and emotional maturity at a young age.

If by strict discipline you mean corporal punishment, I think it's almost always a bad idea, perhaps always (we never use it). Nor would I ever withhold food from a child.

Hey now, not ALL Texans spank their children. Might just be the area of Texas you live in. Austin is a very liberal city and parents around here would be mortified by such acts.

DD has never been spanked even as a baby, though I might have considered a pop on the bottom or hand if and only if she put herself in a dangerous situation such as a hot stove and wouldn't listen. My grandmother lived in an old house with open flamed gas heaters so I was sure we were going to run into this problem. Nope. Even at a very young age of crawling she understood what hot meant. I only had to explain it to her once and she left it alone. By 2 1/2 she was cooking her own eggs on the stove because she fully understood the importance of safety.

We also never had the terrible twos and I think this was more to do with her ability to communicate and my understanding that they are seeking more independence. But in the last few months we are witnessing the attitude. I don't know if it is because she will be 4 next month and 4 year olds tend to talk back or something else is going on but she is definitely all about attitude now.

Oh and timeouts are a joke in this house. She could care less that she has to seat out for a few minutes and I suspect it is because she understands the concept of time and how it really isn't taking away much from her day. That and she has a great imagination and can play without any toys. Even making her go to her room where she doesn't have toys is laughable because she can play up there for hours. We discovered a long time ago that reasoning is the best method with our DD. Explaining why something is not appropriate and staying consistent with our reasons. The kid doesn't forget a thing. We also encourage her to argue her case which means no childish acts of crying and whining but actual reasons why she feels she has the right to do something or have something. The minute she cries or whines we close the discussion. And when she does argue and comes up with valid point we accept that. And another big one for us is we believe that we might be her parents and adults but we are certainly NOT perfect and if DD points this out to us, we have no problem admitting it and apologizing for it.

There is quite a lot of good discipline information in A Parent's Guide to Gifted Children. http://www.amazon.com/Parents-Guide-Gifted-Children/dp/0910707790

Also, most positive discipline books will have information appropriate to gifted kids. Jane Nelsen has several good books on positive discipline. http://www.amazon.com/Positive-Disc...mp;s=books&qid=1279126415&sr=1-4 Many parents of gifted kids have also found help in the books by Mary Kurcinka http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Your-...ooks&qid=1279126312&sr=1-1-spell

Also, you may find good help on this board by posting specific scenarios you are having difficulty with.

Yeah, Austin's a different world. �Very hippy, very nice! �I'm just outside of Laredo here. �It's the land that time forgot and definately it's own little world. �So friendly and polite here. �Population 620. �When I walk with my jogging stroller many neighbors stop to see if I need a ride home, etc... �When someone dies or is sick the whole town knows the same day and takes a collection to help. �
My main concern with the discipline is when he starts karate in a few months I will have to wait in the lobby, and after that pre-k and then school. �He Might get kicked out of karate for acting the way he does with me. �I go with the debate approach because I know it works over time and without ugly family drama. �Like the potty training. �I argued with him verbally for six months but did not do anything else -make him sit on the pot, schedule a routine, ... So he would have self-control. �My mom told me, now that you've argued with him you've taught him it's ok to argue with adults, he's going to argue with the teacher when he goes to school. �I just tell my son what I think. �In that case it was, I hate changing diapers. �I hate poopy diapers. �You're going to have to start using the potty. �Nobody else poops in their pants. �He would say, I don't poop in the potty. �I poop in my pamper because I'm a baby. �(if you're old enough to argue about it, c'mon). �Then I heard about potty candy and bam! Same day potty training. �Done! �But I think the six month debate helped because potty candy didn't work on my nephew. �And my poor dear husband wants a "normal" family life. �It bothered the heck out of him that our son wouldn't use a high-chair ever, but would stand on a people chair at the table. �He would argue and get so frusterated about it. �Sit your butt in the chair. �Honey, why don't you make him listen? He needs to sit down. �I said, I don't care if he sits or stands as long as he stays in his seat and isn't loud. �He used a fork and a napkin he just couldn't see his plate sitting down. �He'll sit when he's bigger, I'd say. �Then he needs a highchair, everybody else's kid is sitting in a highchair, he needs to listen, the hubby'd say. �I've got that book A Parents Guide to Gifted Children which sadly agrees with my husband, that we should be on the same page about this. �(never been on e-bay or Craig's list, but Amazon has me on speed dial. �Oops!).�
Now the arguing has taken an age-related twist- Wyatt's yelling during the arguements or when he doesn't get his way. �When he does that to me I'm taking the slow road again. �I either put him in the other room and close the door or I go in the other room and close the door and tell him I don't want to talk to you talking like that. �I don't want to be around you acting like that. �Modeling how I want him to handle hostile situations and agressive people. �Which is more long-term. �If it's something unavoidable like a seatbelt I do what needs done myself and ignore his cries. �After a while he says I'm done crying now. �I say, oh, you are? �And leave it at that. ��

So, Wyatt wouldn't put his seatbelt on the way to town. �Honey stops the car in the driveway and says, "Put you're seatbelt on." "No, I don't want to put my seatbelt on." Then they were in a yelling match- "you're not going to win.". "I'm not going to listen to you.". "as long as you're living under my roof you will do what I tell you.". (literally said that. �LoL.). Then the husband finally puts the seatbelt on and says, "ha- you didn't win.".
I think we have two different goals here-he wants him to not get in trouble with teachers and the sensei, and to comply with their authority, and I want him to grow up mellow and never learn how to lock horns. �I'm willing to keep him out of karate until he's willing to listen. �I'm willing and able to tell him, if you don't behave at school I won't let you go to school. �I know he'll want to go. �He wants to be where the action is. �Realistically he's probably going to be the teachers pet anyway. �Kindergarten teachers are good with that age. �And the sensei wouldn't say he could start karate at 3 if he didn't know how to handle three-year-olds. �
So, yes, that hippy line in that book about punishment only cultivating more stubborness and stronger defiance really does define my deepest hidden fear. �And the hubby just wants a well behaved kid who's welcome everywhere. �Wyatt is well behaved and well-loved by strangers and neighbors alike. �Both of our discipline fears are more about future events unfolding in our minds, and since our past lives were so different we're trying to prevent two different sets of problems. �That's why I ask about gifted discipline because it addresses the strong-willed indifference to co-ersion, the child's too effective over-reaction, but also would address how to fit the timeline of school comming up, etc..

We've done a lot of things right and have a great kid to start with. We've got "the Happiest toddler on the block." DVD �I didn't think it was worth the price. �But my toddler never raged like that to start with, so it didn't meet my needs. �He's more precise with his defiance. �The worst thing he did, which has at least has stopped, was when he was very little and didn't get his way he would slam his forehead against anything hard-table, floor. �Only once and so hard he'd leave a bruise on his forehead everytime, and then look you right in the eye. �He was very little when he started this. �And that really showed me that even like his cognative development is different so is his attitude. �Other babies slam their head repeatedly and kick and thrash from anger, mine clearly communicates that he thinks he's the one in control of himself. �I don't want to argue the point, as long as he'll behave.

�� �I'm worried that letting him get worked up will feed the negative intensities and teach him to lock horns in an arguement, which really would get him kicked out of class and get him in trouble.� (the ones that look similar to ADD and Bipolar and ,maybe, Aspbergers, not sure, just hearing about that one online, but are really just born of frusteration and heightened sensitivity, and good defenses, not medical conditions). �I'm not sure my husband believes in these things. �And my husband worries that if we don't let him get worked up and fight "the system" (us) and lose then he will think he's in control of everyone, and that we're afraid of his emotions. �I think we both have good points and we often go back and forth, luckily we're pretty drama-free for working togeather from such opposing views? �Is this just the difference between a mother's eyes and a father's eyes?

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