Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion I need help, please... Discipline issues

I have heard that gifted kids need other kinds of discipline than "normal" kids... My husband pulled this article up for me to read: Yahoo Question
Trying to discipline our DS5 has become almost impossible. If we take something away from him he says "I don't care (or I don't mind), I didn't want to play with it anyway". If we do time out, it's a joke. If we yell/spank/insert any other form of discipline here, he laughs at us. They have a "sticker chart" at school that, when they get a green on the behavior chart, they get a sticker and after x amount of stickers, get something from the treasure chest. That doesn't even work at school because he says he "doesn't mind/care/etc" that he's not getting treasure chest as often as other kids because eventually he will."

What do you guys do for discipline and how is it working?

My son pulled the same stuff at a young age-- I had to respect his grit. If you take away ALL of his things and privileges, he will almost certainly eventually break down. I'm just sayin'. If not, you've got a real trooper on your hands.

You need to be completely firm with him, and completely consistent. That requires both of you to be on the same page.

I would not spank him, for lots of reasons.

I have seen this described as an imbalance of power, and maybe that's one part of the problem. I picked up "Beyond Time-Out: From Chaos to Calm" one day at the library, and it had some good advice on dealing with it, although it's not perfect.

I've taken away everything a few times, the only thing I get is "I can't play Wii/toys/games/electronics/insert what we've taken away here". Very matter of fact, like he's waiting for us to say "nah, it's ok." And he'll say it over and over again. Both of us are very firm and consistent (both of us are prior military).

Thanks for the book recommendation, I'll see if they have that at our library.

123 Magic is good book. Positive interventions and supports is good way to deal with children who have control issues. I didn't take all toys away, children learn through play and using toys to act out how they fee if they are frustrated. If he acted out at 5yrs. I would put the toy in timeout for a day to give him time to consider his behavior. If I punished him for everything he did he wouldn't of had any toys and been in time out all the time. Timeout is one minute for every year of age. He did better when I provided lots of things to do,books toys,games, paint,paper,craft supplies,things to build with tinkertoys,legos,popcicle sticks,books with tracing paper and cool monsters occupied hours of his time. If you can keep him engaged in something he is interested in there is less boredom. Making and designing things builds selfesteme and provide multi-sensory learning Howard Garner talks about in his Theory of Multible Intellingences. I have heard of people who take everything away, I never could do that. Reading information on Oppositional Defiant Disorder provides disipline ideas to support parents who have a very strong willed child. Structure,consistancy,charts with rewards are effective. Wishing you the best!

When DS was very little and very challenging I took all his toy away. That darn kid is so creative. I soon realized he did not need any toys to have fun or keep busy and this would never work.

Time outs are very helpful.

One on one time is also very important and effects behavior.

What we found that really worked the best with ongoing problems is talks away from the moment. Motivation was always very strong. We talked about what makes a boy feel good about himself and appropriate problem solving. When ever I can get my children to do something because they think it is the right thing to do rather than becuase it's what Mom and Dad wants it's better.

Try to avoid power struggles. This is hard for me to remember but sometimes I just walk away and say I know you will do the right thing. Or sometimes, when they do the wrong thing I say I'm surprized you made that choice. How could you do this better next time.

When I have a hard day. I read a parenting/gifted book and try to find or renew a focus that can help.

Take some breaks. It will help you deal with all of this.

I hope this helps.

We had tremendous discipline issues with D15 when she was a preschooler. Nothing worked... and she was sooo stubborn, and so smart, it was a very difficult time. Looking back, I can see now that some of our issues were related to her Asperger's. She had NO IDEA that she was making us really angry or behaving in a really inappropriate way when she refused to stay in her room when she was sent there. At the time I thought she just didn't care, but now I think she really didn't get it. We used to have to hold the door of her room shut to keep her in it when she was sent to her room. Timeout was not possible, I think it would have required tying her to the chair to get her to stay in it!

She has (thankfully!!!!!) grown out of a lot of that as she has gotten older. We have learned to make sure we are very explicit in our expectations and voicing our emotions out loud so she can't miss them. And she has learned that she has to really pay attention to expectations and emotions of others, too.

Time outs never worked (at all) for our Asperger kid. 123 Magic: a total disaster. These increased anxiety without ever helping us manage negative behavior. Your mileage may vary, ours is surely a fairly specific case.

What has been effective for us is for the parents (us) to give up the idea of "sending him to his room" or "putting him in time out" to deal with the fallout of behavior by himself. Ours needs some very hands on teaching in the moment. (Discipline means teaching, anyhow.) This is a ton of work, but worth it.

We have had to spell out what behavior is expected in advance, and have him rehearse that behavior when he and we are calm, enough times that we are sure he knows what to do and how to do it. If there's an infraction, we try to stay very even keeled, and go over the problem again, ask him to make a better choice, and ask him to repair the damage he did (by apologizing sweetly and sincerely, or cleaning up his mess, or otherwise working to fix it). This ties consequences directly to the infraction, and makes it about teaching a better way rather than about punishment.

The other main thing is that if he fusses about something, it's taken away. (If he whines for Wii or doesn't turn it off when he's supposed to, if there is nagging for dessert... not going to happen. If he and his brother fight over the object, it goes away, usually for at least 8 hours and up to 24.) This keeps the taking away of objects to a minimum, because it's only fussed-for things that have to go. And if it's fussed for, it's the one that matters most to him anyway.

We have more recently done well with a system that awards points for desired behavior, with privileges (things like dessert or choice of beverage at dinner or Wii time) being contingent on staying in the positive number territory. Points are taken away for disrespectful behavior, so he can end up in negative territory and lose his privileges. It is very engaging to his mathematical sensibility and seems to be working pretty well.

HTH,
DeeDee

Thanks for all of the recommendations, especially the books!

Time outs in our house are a complete joke. If we sent him to his room, he usually just makes a disaster out of his room and time outs in a chair where we can see him are not useful.

I took him to the doc to see if he had autism or aspergers, neither of which she believes he does. She suspects ADD/ADHD, but my husband refuses to try the medication because "he's a 5 year old boy, and that's what 5 year old boys do and how they act."

DeeDee, I like the idea of the chart with the points system. Maybe the sticker chart at school doesn't entertain him because he either gets a sticker or not. There's nothing really engaging to him about it. I'll have to try that, I think he'd enjoy that and "get" it better.

Hi, KD976--
I'll warn you that our son really only got into the groove of charts or point systems around age 6 or so, so it will depend on your child whether this works for you at age 5.

Things that made this kind of system work for us:

--Absolutely key: They should reward concrete, specific, positive behaviors that you have taught him. It should not ever be "you were good all morning, here's a sticker." That means absolutely nothing to him: it's unclear what's being rewarded. (And being that general and vague is why systems like this often fail.) It has to be very concrete: "You just put your dish in the dishwasher, thank you, you EARNED a sticker." (or point, whatever). You can pick a couple of things to work on first; then as those are mastered, move on.

--If you are taking away points, you should be very clear about the reason, and use it instead of yelling/making an emotional fuss. Keep it very matter of fact so you don't make him anxious, which will only make things worse in our experience. "You earned negative three points for hitting your sister. Hurting other people is against the rules." This has to happen right after the incident, so the connection is made.

--You need to make clear what the available privileges are and how they are earned, so he is invested in the system. As you say, he can be defiant and decide he doesn't want toys and not buy in; but at our house, most things DS wants can be defined as privileges, so it is worth his while to stay on the plus side.

--You have to be willing to really stay on top of it over a period of many weeks. It is serious work. If you start, and then abandon it, it won't be worth much.

I just now put together that you are the same person I have been having a conversation with over on the 2E board; I can only say that your description of having trouble with discipline really reminds me of how our child with Asperger's was at that age. I know your ped. doesn't see it, but if you can get a more qualified expert on board to evaluate more thoroughly, I think it would be an excellent idea. Giftedness can make it very difficult to get an accurate diagnosis for LDs and autism spectrum disorders, but a thorough eval may get you better help for your DS.

HTH,
DeeDee

We start out our days with "what are we earning today?" [if it seems that he didn't sleep well or if he got up out of the wrong side of the bed;)]...not a toy or gift, but wii time or computer time (how much time is set in advance), or a chocolate shake later. We cannot do time outs or other kind of discipline here.., it's useless. We don't take things away; again, we earn things.

The main thing that seems to work is doing tons of praising throughout the day "you are doing a great job today" - not BEING good. "I am so proud of you for making that really good choice." "That made her feel really good when you made that choice." etc. Comments like these, with explanations of why these things were good (not just an empty, repeated comment) before any bad behavior starts, have helped so much! Then, the earning thing just fell into place every day. And most days it is isn't mentioned at all because he is doing so well, he is proud of himself; and everyone is happy. He is homeschooled as well; so we don't have a lot of outside issues interfering that he can't tell me about, or that I don't know about. I am not saying that hs-ing solves all issues in any way.:)

Also, sometimes my son just needs a break when he is tired. He no longer takes naps; so between 4pm and 5pm, he is exhausted and tends to get crabby; and I make him lay down and watch tv in the living room or lay in his bedroom with no entertainment (he always chooses the LR - but it is still his choice;). He gets two choices when any issues ensue...both that I am happy with. We are calm around him, as we have to be. We all prefer a calm environment anyway.:) Our stress is his stress. Your DS may have a bad day if his teacher is having a bad day...another gifted issue of sensitivity to his surroundings. In conjunction, if there is stress in the home, he may be picking up on it (don't take this as criticism - just experience:).
Hope some of this helps.