I have heard that gifted kids need other kinds of discipline than "normal" kids... My husband pulled this article up for me to read: Yahoo Question
Trying to discipline our DS5 has become almost impossible. If we take something away from him he says "I don't care (or I don't mind), I didn't want to play with it anyway". If we do time out, it's a joke. If we yell/spank/insert any other form of discipline here, he laughs at us. They have a "sticker chart" at school that, when they get a green on the behavior chart, they get a sticker and after x amount of stickers, get something from the treasure chest. That doesn't even work at school because he says he "doesn't mind/care/etc" that he's not getting treasure chest as often as other kids because eventually he will."

What do you guys do for discipline and how is it working?

My son pulled the same stuff at a young age-- I had to respect his grit. If you take away ALL of his things and privileges, he will almost certainly eventually break down. I'm just sayin'. If not, you've got a real trooper on your hands.

You need to be completely firm with him, and completely consistent. That requires both of you to be on the same page.

I would not spank him, for lots of reasons.

I have seen this described as an imbalance of power, and maybe that's one part of the problem. I picked up "Beyond Time-Out: From Chaos to Calm" one day at the library, and it had some good advice on dealing with it, although it's not perfect.

I've taken away everything a few times, the only thing I get is "I can't play Wii/toys/games/electronics/insert what we've taken away here". Very matter of fact, like he's waiting for us to say "nah, it's ok." And he'll say it over and over again. Both of us are very firm and consistent (both of us are prior military).

Thanks for the book recommendation, I'll see if they have that at our library.

123 Magic is good book. Positive interventions and supports is good way to deal with children who have control issues. I didn't take all toys away, children learn through play and using toys to act out how they fee if they are frustrated. If he acted out at 5yrs. I would put the toy in timeout for a day to give him time to consider his behavior. If I punished him for everything he did he wouldn't of had any toys and been in time out all the time. Timeout is one minute for every year of age. He did better when I provided lots of things to do,books toys,games, paint,paper,craft supplies,things to build with tinkertoys,legos,popcicle sticks,books with tracing paper and cool monsters occupied hours of his time. If you can keep him engaged in something he is interested in there is less boredom. Making and designing things builds selfesteme and provide multi-sensory learning Howard Garner talks about in his Theory of Multible Intellingences. I have heard of people who take everything away, I never could do that. Reading information on Oppositional Defiant Disorder provides disipline ideas to support parents who have a very strong willed child. Structure,consistancy,charts with rewards are effective. Wishing you the best!

When DS was very little and very challenging I took all his toy away. That darn kid is so creative. I soon realized he did not need any toys to have fun or keep busy and this would never work.

Time outs are very helpful.

One on one time is also very important and effects behavior.

What we found that really worked the best with ongoing problems is talks away from the moment. Motivation was always very strong. We talked about what makes a boy feel good about himself and appropriate problem solving. When ever I can get my children to do something because they think it is the right thing to do rather than becuase it's what Mom and Dad wants it's better.

Try to avoid power struggles. This is hard for me to remember but sometimes I just walk away and say I know you will do the right thing. Or sometimes, when they do the wrong thing I say I'm surprized you made that choice. How could you do this better next time.

When I have a hard day. I read a parenting/gifted book and try to find or renew a focus that can help.

Take some breaks. It will help you deal with all of this.

I hope this helps.

We had tremendous discipline issues with D15 when she was a preschooler. Nothing worked... and she was sooo stubborn, and so smart, it was a very difficult time. Looking back, I can see now that some of our issues were related to her Asperger's. She had NO IDEA that she was making us really angry or behaving in a really inappropriate way when she refused to stay in her room when she was sent there. At the time I thought she just didn't care, but now I think she really didn't get it. We used to have to hold the door of her room shut to keep her in it when she was sent to her room. Timeout was not possible, I think it would have required tying her to the chair to get her to stay in it!

She has (thankfully!!!!!) grown out of a lot of that as she has gotten older. We have learned to make sure we are very explicit in our expectations and voicing our emotions out loud so she can't miss them. And she has learned that she has to really pay attention to expectations and emotions of others, too.

Time outs never worked (at all) for our Asperger kid. 123 Magic: a total disaster. These increased anxiety without ever helping us manage negative behavior. Your mileage may vary, ours is surely a fairly specific case.

What has been effective for us is for the parents (us) to give up the idea of "sending him to his room" or "putting him in time out" to deal with the fallout of behavior by himself. Ours needs some very hands on teaching in the moment. (Discipline means teaching, anyhow.) This is a ton of work, but worth it.

We have had to spell out what behavior is expected in advance, and have him rehearse that behavior when he and we are calm, enough times that we are sure he knows what to do and how to do it. If there's an infraction, we try to stay very even keeled, and go over the problem again, ask him to make a better choice, and ask him to repair the damage he did (by apologizing sweetly and sincerely, or cleaning up his mess, or otherwise working to fix it). This ties consequences directly to the infraction, and makes it about teaching a better way rather than about punishment.

The other main thing is that if he fusses about something, it's taken away. (If he whines for Wii or doesn't turn it off when he's supposed to, if there is nagging for dessert... not going to happen. If he and his brother fight over the object, it goes away, usually for at least 8 hours and up to 24.) This keeps the taking away of objects to a minimum, because it's only fussed-for things that have to go. And if it's fussed for, it's the one that matters most to him anyway.

We have more recently done well with a system that awards points for desired behavior, with privileges (things like dessert or choice of beverage at dinner or Wii time) being contingent on staying in the positive number territory. Points are taken away for disrespectful behavior, so he can end up in negative territory and lose his privileges. It is very engaging to his mathematical sensibility and seems to be working pretty well.

HTH,
DeeDee

Thanks for all of the recommendations, especially the books!

Time outs in our house are a complete joke. If we sent him to his room, he usually just makes a disaster out of his room and time outs in a chair where we can see him are not useful.

I took him to the doc to see if he had autism or aspergers, neither of which she believes he does. She suspects ADD/ADHD, but my husband refuses to try the medication because "he's a 5 year old boy, and that's what 5 year old boys do and how they act."

DeeDee, I like the idea of the chart with the points system. Maybe the sticker chart at school doesn't entertain him because he either gets a sticker or not. There's nothing really engaging to him about it. I'll have to try that, I think he'd enjoy that and "get" it better.

Hi, KD976--
I'll warn you that our son really only got into the groove of charts or point systems around age 6 or so, so it will depend on your child whether this works for you at age 5.

Things that made this kind of system work for us:

--Absolutely key: They should reward concrete, specific, positive behaviors that you have taught him. It should not ever be "you were good all morning, here's a sticker." That means absolutely nothing to him: it's unclear what's being rewarded. (And being that general and vague is why systems like this often fail.) It has to be very concrete: "You just put your dish in the dishwasher, thank you, you EARNED a sticker." (or point, whatever). You can pick a couple of things to work on first; then as those are mastered, move on.

--If you are taking away points, you should be very clear about the reason, and use it instead of yelling/making an emotional fuss. Keep it very matter of fact so you don't make him anxious, which will only make things worse in our experience. "You earned negative three points for hitting your sister. Hurting other people is against the rules." This has to happen right after the incident, so the connection is made.

--You need to make clear what the available privileges are and how they are earned, so he is invested in the system. As you say, he can be defiant and decide he doesn't want toys and not buy in; but at our house, most things DS wants can be defined as privileges, so it is worth his while to stay on the plus side.

--You have to be willing to really stay on top of it over a period of many weeks. It is serious work. If you start, and then abandon it, it won't be worth much.

I just now put together that you are the same person I have been having a conversation with over on the 2E board; I can only say that your description of having trouble with discipline really reminds me of how our child with Asperger's was at that age. I know your ped. doesn't see it, but if you can get a more qualified expert on board to evaluate more thoroughly, I think it would be an excellent idea. Giftedness can make it very difficult to get an accurate diagnosis for LDs and autism spectrum disorders, but a thorough eval may get you better help for your DS.

HTH,
DeeDee

We start out our days with "what are we earning today?" [if it seems that he didn't sleep well or if he got up out of the wrong side of the bed;)]...not a toy or gift, but wii time or computer time (how much time is set in advance), or a chocolate shake later. We cannot do time outs or other kind of discipline here.., it's useless. We don't take things away; again, we earn things.

The main thing that seems to work is doing tons of praising throughout the day "you are doing a great job today" - not BEING good. "I am so proud of you for making that really good choice." "That made her feel really good when you made that choice." etc. Comments like these, with explanations of why these things were good (not just an empty, repeated comment) before any bad behavior starts, have helped so much! Then, the earning thing just fell into place every day. And most days it is isn't mentioned at all because he is doing so well, he is proud of himself; and everyone is happy. He is homeschooled as well; so we don't have a lot of outside issues interfering that he can't tell me about, or that I don't know about. I am not saying that hs-ing solves all issues in any way.:)

Also, sometimes my son just needs a break when he is tired. He no longer takes naps; so between 4pm and 5pm, he is exhausted and tends to get crabby; and I make him lay down and watch tv in the living room or lay in his bedroom with no entertainment (he always chooses the LR - but it is still his choice;). He gets two choices when any issues ensue...both that I am happy with. We are calm around him, as we have to be. We all prefer a calm environment anyway.:) Our stress is his stress. Your DS may have a bad day if his teacher is having a bad day...another gifted issue of sensitivity to his surroundings. In conjunction, if there is stress in the home, he may be picking up on it (don't take this as criticism - just experience:).
Hope some of this helps.

We had a rough year switching from public to catholic with DS7. So he is a bit older than your son. He was coming home with note after note "not behaving" "playing with pencils" "said the word suck" etc. I would then punish him at home by taking the DS away or computer away etc. It was not working. Finally I though the poor kid gets punished enough at school and here I am punishing him on top of that and he is only more upset and more angry. I decided to reward the good instead of punishing the bad. He loves after school, it costs $20 a day so we don't normally do it. I told him if he is good all week he can go to after school on Friday. It was a miracle. It has been almost 2 months with not one single note! He said he loves after school so much he would do anything for it. Maybe you can try to reward the good instead of punishing the bad. I am still amazed how it is working.

We were on our way to see a $150 an hour therapist for advice! So we saved a ton of money on our own LOL!

My DS7 has a tendency to react, then think. In an effort to get this moving in the other direction, we instituted "ground hog day". When he makes one of his instant, not thought out choices, I stop him and ask him if he'd like to try a "do over". The second time he generally makes a much better choice and the situation never escalates. Depending on the situation, we will often discuss what went wrong the first time. It has taken some time but I have definitely seen improvement in his behavior. More and more he is thinking first, then reacting.

To second a comment up above, we were told by a psychologist when D was about 5 that he did not believe she had Aspergers. But at age 15, we recently had a psychologist tell us our D probably DOES have it. He was testing for other things and did not do the actual testing needed for a formal diagnosis, but after reading up on it after he brought it up, I think he is right. We have not pursued the formal diagnosis yet, but probably will so we have it if she wants to request accomodations in college. Her current (private) school is great about accomodations already, so we just haven't had a need for the formal diagnosis. But my point is really that even a psychologist can miss this diagnosis in a 5 year old, so I would at least get a 2nd opinion beyond your pediatrician. Maybe it is not what is going on with your son, of course, but it if is it explains a lot!

You guys are so awesome & helpful, thanks a million! We have a lot of work to do, that's for sure. I'm all for it, and thankfully my husband and I see pretty much eye to eye when it comes to discipline.

I really, really appreciate everything.

I tried to find help on this subject before it became a problem. �Too late! �It became a problem a few weeks ago.
My mother said the same as the yahoo article. �Spanking are over quickly, take away everything and I can daydream, LoL. �I want to have a modern family where I use logic and reason and education as discipline. �I lived with the hippys in Woodstock for 7 years because I love peace. �I live in Texas where everybody agrees I'm crazy because I refused to spank a baby before he turns two (by then it's too late, they say).
I try to do like onthegomom says and try to avoid power struggles, while still expecting good behaviour. For the most part this works. �But he's not always going to be home with me- karate starts next year, pre-k the year after. �They won't make special exceptions for one kid needing too much class time because his mom's a hippy. �I'm afraid because of "gifted intensities", I'm seeing that they're called now. �They always just said about me, I would over-react. �
This behaviour that just started: �He doesn't want to do what he's told. �(like put on your seatbelt, go change your undies you peed in them, things he knows he has to do). To the point of crying and arguing. �I know developmentally three is the age of working out independance. �I bribed him with "potty candy" (1 m&m) and he handles his own bathroom schedule. �I let him use a knife to cut his dinner. �"teach the children, let them lead the way," etc...but when he needs boundries he's showing that he's my son. �Long ago if he threw a toy against the wall when he was sent to his room I would put it on top of the fridge, until he started throwing toys then bring them to me to take away as punishment. �I'm afraid of power struggles making him stronger, making him more than the teachers can handle. �I'm not going to let him just do what he wants either.�
Here's a quote from "how to talk so your kids will listen" book that sums up my fears:
" � � The use of punishment only helps the child to develop a greater power of resistance and defiance�and
The child may learn how to avoid successfully any guilt feelings for bad behavior by setting up a cycle in which the punishment cancels the �crime�. "
Greater resistance and defiance, whee. My mother was strict. �My sisters and I were exceptionally well behaved. �When I didn't comply it was always intense. �
There's also the gifted sense of right and justice. �My son has always been one to fix things he saw wrong around the house. �If he's done eating and I'm not in the kitchen he insists I put his dish in the sink immediately (he can't do that because he broke a dish). �It bothers him if things aren't right, and he's got good observation skills. �This is a discipline problem because the world ain't gonna conform to his standards. �And with his logic and reasoning then, why should he comply every time? �Except to avoid punishment, which I've said I'm afraid might lead to greater intensity and defiance. �I can tell he's a lot like me. �He's going to be a truly good person to the core. �When there's conflict I don't want it to look like he's over-reacting when he feels he's doing what needs to be done.
My husband thinks strict discipline. �Make them cry now or they'll make you cry later. �I don't know. �I saw problems resulting from this approach in my own childhood and given how we three turned out I quiestion the long-term effectiveness. �I've tried to explain to my husband, "I am different from anyone, my kids will be different than your kids friends." �He knows my life history. �It's an unusual story. �I can't seem to find any resources on effective discipline and gifted kids. �Surely that's just as important as an IEP, and just as challenging.

Re: "The use of punishment only helps the child to develop a greater power of resistance and defiance", it sounds like a bunch of hippie nonsense to me. ;D

Regarding the avoidance of guilty feelings for bad behavior, I suppose that is a risk. You don't want your kid turning into a sneak, behaving badly when he thinks he can avoid punishment. It's tough, but you have to use all your knowledge of your individual kid to help you teach good values, empathy, etc. It's a long process, and it may seem like slow going with a gifted kid because of the difference between intellectual and emotional maturity at a young age.

If by strict discipline you mean corporal punishment, I think it's almost always a bad idea, perhaps always (we never use it). Nor would I ever withhold food from a child.

Hey now, not ALL Texans spank their children. Might just be the area of Texas you live in. Austin is a very liberal city and parents around here would be mortified by such acts.

DD has never been spanked even as a baby, though I might have considered a pop on the bottom or hand if and only if she put herself in a dangerous situation such as a hot stove and wouldn't listen. My grandmother lived in an old house with open flamed gas heaters so I was sure we were going to run into this problem. Nope. Even at a very young age of crawling she understood what hot meant. I only had to explain it to her once and she left it alone. By 2 1/2 she was cooking her own eggs on the stove because she fully understood the importance of safety.

We also never had the terrible twos and I think this was more to do with her ability to communicate and my understanding that they are seeking more independence. But in the last few months we are witnessing the attitude. I don't know if it is because she will be 4 next month and 4 year olds tend to talk back or something else is going on but she is definitely all about attitude now.

Oh and timeouts are a joke in this house. She could care less that she has to seat out for a few minutes and I suspect it is because she understands the concept of time and how it really isn't taking away much from her day. That and she has a great imagination and can play without any toys. Even making her go to her room where she doesn't have toys is laughable because she can play up there for hours. We discovered a long time ago that reasoning is the best method with our DD. Explaining why something is not appropriate and staying consistent with our reasons. The kid doesn't forget a thing. We also encourage her to argue her case which means no childish acts of crying and whining but actual reasons why she feels she has the right to do something or have something. The minute she cries or whines we close the discussion. And when she does argue and comes up with valid point we accept that. And another big one for us is we believe that we might be her parents and adults but we are certainly NOT perfect and if DD points this out to us, we have no problem admitting it and apologizing for it.

There is quite a lot of good discipline information in A Parent's Guide to Gifted Children. http://www.amazon.com/Parents-Guide-Gifted-Children/dp/0910707790

Also, most positive discipline books will have information appropriate to gifted kids. Jane Nelsen has several good books on positive discipline. http://www.amazon.com/Positive-Disc...mp;s=books&qid=1279126415&sr=1-4 Many parents of gifted kids have also found help in the books by Mary Kurcinka http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Your-...ooks&qid=1279126312&sr=1-1-spell

Also, you may find good help on this board by posting specific scenarios you are having difficulty with.

Yeah, Austin's a different world. �Very hippy, very nice! �I'm just outside of Laredo here. �It's the land that time forgot and definately it's own little world. �So friendly and polite here. �Population 620. �When I walk with my jogging stroller many neighbors stop to see if I need a ride home, etc... �When someone dies or is sick the whole town knows the same day and takes a collection to help. �
My main concern with the discipline is when he starts karate in a few months I will have to wait in the lobby, and after that pre-k and then school. �He Might get kicked out of karate for acting the way he does with me. �I go with the debate approach because I know it works over time and without ugly family drama. �Like the potty training. �I argued with him verbally for six months but did not do anything else -make him sit on the pot, schedule a routine, ... So he would have self-control. �My mom told me, now that you've argued with him you've taught him it's ok to argue with adults, he's going to argue with the teacher when he goes to school. �I just tell my son what I think. �In that case it was, I hate changing diapers. �I hate poopy diapers. �You're going to have to start using the potty. �Nobody else poops in their pants. �He would say, I don't poop in the potty. �I poop in my pamper because I'm a baby. �(if you're old enough to argue about it, c'mon). �Then I heard about potty candy and bam! Same day potty training. �Done! �But I think the six month debate helped because potty candy didn't work on my nephew. �And my poor dear husband wants a "normal" family life. �It bothered the heck out of him that our son wouldn't use a high-chair ever, but would stand on a people chair at the table. �He would argue and get so frusterated about it. �Sit your butt in the chair. �Honey, why don't you make him listen? He needs to sit down. �I said, I don't care if he sits or stands as long as he stays in his seat and isn't loud. �He used a fork and a napkin he just couldn't see his plate sitting down. �He'll sit when he's bigger, I'd say. �Then he needs a highchair, everybody else's kid is sitting in a highchair, he needs to listen, the hubby'd say. �I've got that book A Parents Guide to Gifted Children which sadly agrees with my husband, that we should be on the same page about this. �(never been on e-bay or Craig's list, but Amazon has me on speed dial. �Oops!).�
Now the arguing has taken an age-related twist- Wyatt's yelling during the arguements or when he doesn't get his way. �When he does that to me I'm taking the slow road again. �I either put him in the other room and close the door or I go in the other room and close the door and tell him I don't want to talk to you talking like that. �I don't want to be around you acting like that. �Modeling how I want him to handle hostile situations and agressive people. �Which is more long-term. �If it's something unavoidable like a seatbelt I do what needs done myself and ignore his cries. �After a while he says I'm done crying now. �I say, oh, you are? �And leave it at that. ��

So, Wyatt wouldn't put his seatbelt on the way to town. �Honey stops the car in the driveway and says, "Put you're seatbelt on." "No, I don't want to put my seatbelt on." Then they were in a yelling match- "you're not going to win.". "I'm not going to listen to you.". "as long as you're living under my roof you will do what I tell you.". (literally said that. �LoL.). Then the husband finally puts the seatbelt on and says, "ha- you didn't win.".
I think we have two different goals here-he wants him to not get in trouble with teachers and the sensei, and to comply with their authority, and I want him to grow up mellow and never learn how to lock horns. �I'm willing to keep him out of karate until he's willing to listen. �I'm willing and able to tell him, if you don't behave at school I won't let you go to school. �I know he'll want to go. �He wants to be where the action is. �Realistically he's probably going to be the teachers pet anyway. �Kindergarten teachers are good with that age. �And the sensei wouldn't say he could start karate at 3 if he didn't know how to handle three-year-olds. �
So, yes, that hippy line in that book about punishment only cultivating more stubborness and stronger defiance really does define my deepest hidden fear. �And the hubby just wants a well behaved kid who's welcome everywhere. �Wyatt is well behaved and well-loved by strangers and neighbors alike. �Both of our discipline fears are more about future events unfolding in our minds, and since our past lives were so different we're trying to prevent two different sets of problems. �That's why I ask about gifted discipline because it addresses the strong-willed indifference to co-ersion, the child's too effective over-reaction, but also would address how to fit the timeline of school comming up, etc..

We've done a lot of things right and have a great kid to start with. We've got "the Happiest toddler on the block." DVD �I didn't think it was worth the price. �But my toddler never raged like that to start with, so it didn't meet my needs. �He's more precise with his defiance. �The worst thing he did, which has at least has stopped, was when he was very little and didn't get his way he would slam his forehead against anything hard-table, floor. �Only once and so hard he'd leave a bruise on his forehead everytime, and then look you right in the eye. �He was very little when he started this. �And that really showed me that even like his cognative development is different so is his attitude. �Other babies slam their head repeatedly and kick and thrash from anger, mine clearly communicates that he thinks he's the one in control of himself. �I don't want to argue the point, as long as he'll behave.

�� �I'm worried that letting him get worked up will feed the negative intensities and teach him to lock horns in an arguement, which really would get him kicked out of class and get him in trouble.� (the ones that look similar to ADD and Bipolar and ,maybe, Aspbergers, not sure, just hearing about that one online, but are really just born of frusteration and heightened sensitivity, and good defenses, not medical conditions). �I'm not sure my husband believes in these things. �And my husband worries that if we don't let him get worked up and fight "the system" (us) and lose then he will think he's in control of everyone, and that we're afraid of his emotions. �I think we both have good points and we often go back and forth, luckily we're pretty drama-free for working togeather from such opposing views? �Is this just the difference between a mother's eyes and a father's eyes?

�� �

I'm having trouble understanding what you are trying to say here. What message are you saying you got from the Parent's Guide book? That your son should follow orders and be compliant? I'm wondering if you possibly have this confused with another book. I didn't get anything remotely like that from the book. Rather it talks about the differences between authoritative, authoritarian and permissive parenting. It talks about the risk that punishment breeds resentment and the importance of understanding intensity in gifted kids. It talks about self discipline and avoiding power struggles.

It sounds like you have a lot of worry about how your son will function in group activities like karate. I think you are borrowing trouble. Most kids act differently in groups than they act with parents at home. I would try activities and see how they go before you spin your worry so far into the future.

Ah yes, I am worried about the future. I also worry, "what will the neighbors think?" without saying it sarcastically like I would before I became a mother. I don't think the book recommended authoritarian parenting, but it did say the parents need to be on the same page. The hubby and I aren't, but we support each others parenting and we're keeping open ongoing conversation about it. Thanks for pointing out that he'll be different in a group setting.

We ended up taking him to a child psychologist to help us. Turns out the doc thinks he has mild/moderate ADHD and could possibly have ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder). So he suggested meds for the ADHD along with a "token system" for behavior. So last week we met and discussed how they get tokens and what/how many tokens it "costs" to do the "privileges". Just opened the poker chips today and gave them their "starting 10" and so far, so good... DS5 has already spent 3 of his tokens to play Wii, was going to spend another 4 to play games, but realized he only had 3 left after that and decided not to spend that 4 to play games. So he's giving them value.

I was just finished reading "Smart Boys" by Kerr & Cohn (I really need to make a little book report for the recommended resources.) � But they said "A study by Arcenaux (1990) shows that although underachieving gifted students do possess Antisocial Personality Disorder characteristics, these characteristics are uniquely combined with a need for understanding and knowledge. �Although they engage in behaviors that are not socially acceptable, they seem to have a longing to understand their own behavior and the world around them. �In contrast to the unthinking unfeeling sociopath, they usually feel the need for profound thought and for expressing intense feelings.". They go on to say in the chapter "Gifted Sociopaths, Redeemable Rebels, and how to tell the difference" that aggressive gifted boys are not actual psychopaths but have adopted a survival strategy similar to certain species of butterfly which mimic toxic species. �The boys take on the characteristics of sociopathic behavior to defend themselves against those who would humiliate or hurt them. �So the "American Psychiatric Association has not allowed the term Antisocial Personality Disorder to be used with children and instead has developed three other categories to describe them: oppositional defiant disorder, intermittent explosive disorder, and conduct disorder.". According to this book �the Antisocial Personality Disorder diagnosis (aka sociopath or psychopath) is like a brain damage that the neurotransmitters are forever ruined and does not respond to treatment. �

I just read about this in a book, now I'm reading about it in your post so I thought I'd let you know. �ODD is apparently a sub-category of sociopath, but more like they're faking it as an effective self-defense mechanism than any actual neurological disorder. �So with understanding and behavior training the ODD goes away. �Phew! �

Hope that helps and hope I don't sound too weird for reading about these things. �
My brother used ADD medicine and my stepmother said it really helped him accomplish more things in his life and in his day. �She told me to try to keep an open mind about it if they recommend it for my son when he is older. �She says your brain chemistry changes as you age so that it's a useful tool that helps that they eventually outgrow the need for.
I think it's great that the reward system seems to be working for you. �Putting aside the debate over internal vs. External motivation I think this might work because it's putting the executive functioning responsibility back on him. �And it's a positive reinforcement system which doesn't trigger the gifted ODD defenses.

Hi Kd
Good luck with the token system. A book I really value is called 'Transforming the Difficult Child' by Howard Glasser, the 2008 edition and the workbook that goes with it is terrific.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

"I love for example strategy he and I call sports casting. Instead of having a fit as an adult when our kids go off, we act like a sportscaster. "Oh, I see you are having a fit. I see you are red in the face. I hear you screaming and holding your breath."
I love it! I've seen this approach. It just looks so cool. I'm buying this cD

This might well be nothing new, but here goes.... The most important advice I have about parenting is that parents need to earn their authority - being older doesn't cut it, and neither does owning the house - and this is important with every kid, but with gifted kids it becomes ten times as important five years earlier. Earning authority as a parent means respecting the child, being willing to engage in discussions about rules, and never exercising power just for the hell of it (which, unfortunately, a LOT of parents do). If I were you, I'd skip the parenting books and go read Locke and Jefferson - it's all about "just powers derived from the consent of the governed".

KD, if you're consistent with the token economy it can work really well. It makes the child so much more conscious of when they've done something good or bad, and eliminates a lot of yelling (turns it into a financial transaction). The tricky bit is keeping track-- but I think it's worth the effort.

Meds can really change how ADHD presents-- I don't know if you're considering that, but it is helpful to a lot of people.

Kudos to you for figuring out your DS's needs--
DeeDee

Zhain....this is exactly how I felt in my 20s and 30s and I tried my darndest to raise DS14 exactly this way. I'm not at all impressed with how that went. I think that each child needs slightly different emphasis and each parent needs to face slightly different challenges.

shrugs
grinity

Umm..but!,�
Jefferson has been quoted as saying this political consent to government does not apply to infants to the age of decision, women, or slaves.
http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/fall97/jeffersn.html
In raising his own daughters he was clearly a hothouser in the extreme-scheduling finishing lessons that lasted all day for his daughters in both French and music while forbidding the reading of novels or study of unapproved topics. �
I get what you're saying though. �You didn't mean I should literally study their parenting techniques (especially since back then men weren't the primary parents, especially for small children.). �
Besides agreeing with you that children deserve respect and are people too, I also agree that the discipline theories get put to the test years sooner and much more thoroughly with gifted children.
Since you're quoting the declaration of independence text you're obviously encouraging us to treat children like fellow American Citizens. �Which I am happy to do. �I want him to learn about his citizenship. �But ironically part of that is property rights and then it would matter who owns the house. �But we're talking about disciplining children, especially in cases where their behavior is disrupting their pursuit of happiness as in ODD, ADD, and other behavior disorders, then teaching prosocial behavior trumps cultivating altruistic behaviors both in urgency of need, and can be more readily observed.
Yes, respect has to be a key factor-both ways. �

I'm considering "skill-streaming for elementary school", which looks like a lot of discussion and role-playing for pro-social behavior. �I'm also considering The Nurtured Heart, which looks similar to the "total transformation system" my husband wanted from a radio ad, but from a fraction of the cost- $25 vs. $300, both look like a similar technique. �Both look like they say the same darn thing I've been telling him- Quit arguing with a two year old! �If he has to do something make him do it, if not let him be. � You don't have to go to every argument you're invited to.
I'm intrigued with this token economy system. �Guess I'd have to buy the workbook to flesh out the details. �I'm gonna google first see if I can find a free outline that works for me. �Oh, here's the link to the other book I'm considering, but I would buy it used from Amazon, not from here. http://www.researchpress.com/scripts/details.asp?item=4950&detail_id=116&detail_item=
�

This reminds me of something I thought about the other day. I used to hate it when my Mom wouldn't let me finish what I was saying (or in reality *my argument*) and I always said that I wouldn't be that way with my kid. Fast forward all these years later and I am now painfully aware that my Mom did let me 'state my case' once or twice, but when it reached the point where I was saying the same darn thing over and over again trying to get things the way *I* wanted them...it was then that she cut me off, ended the discussion, put a stop to it all. Now, as I parent my own child and he frequently tells me that "you never let me finish what I want to say", I feel my Mom's pain.

"...respecting the child, being willing to engage in discussions about rules, and never exercising power just for the hell of it..." is great in theory and in many practical applications. However, it's been my (anecdotal) experience that it can also get away from you and before you know it, the child thinks everything is debatable, arguable, and up for discussion and that just simply isn't the case (in my house, anyway). For example, I do believe in offering explanations/reasons for some things, if and when I can or feel inclined, but it's not something that I'm required to do. I think grinity hit the nail on the head with different emphasis and different challenges. JMHO.

A random Locke quote from his second treatise:
Been reading Locke all day long today almost. Thanks for the suggestion. Given today's economic worries this glimpse into the beginning of the great divide between capitalism & democracy has been timely and appropriate. I'm enjoying the drama of the Locke scholars as well. Just posting to add this quote since it seems to support the idea of a "token economy reward system" discussed in this thread. Locke also seemed to have a lot to say about the value of a man's labor, value creation, and social contribution, which fit in nicely with the prosocial behavior training.

I guess to me "teaching prosocial behavior" is too close for comfort to teaching conformity, and most dangerously to teaching unthinking conformity. Half the time "ADD" or any other string of letters we add to someone just means they're being individuals and someone at school doesn't like that. (I know that considering the population on these boards I'm probably beating a dead horse, but it's my pet peeve dead horse.... ;)) Anyway, I do understand what you're saying and absolutely believe the respect has to be both ways, but it's amazing how many adults out there think an imbalance of responsibility, size, and life experience equates to an imbalance of humanity and the right to basic respect. Like you said, kids are fellow citizens - but how often are they really treated like it in our society? Schools routinely break every part of the Bill of Rights and they're allowed to do so by the courts, which to me makes it even more important that they're treated like people at home. "We worry about what a child will become tomorrow, yet we forget that he is someone today." -Stacia Tauscher


Sorry, but why not? As a teacher, my rule #1 for myself is that if I can't explain why I'm making a rule for my class, then I have no right to make it. Same thing goes for parents. Obviously not in the case of "don't walk in front of that bus", but when there's time to give an explanation I feel the child has every right to hear it - and since a lot of gifted people have a propensity to refuse to follow rules they see as arbitrary, giving them the explanation will work in your favor. When I was a kid (age 3 or so), I fought my mom on any number of things she told me to do, but only once for each thing. When she, in the course of the argument, finally managed to (accidentally, in most cases) explain her reasoning, I was fine from then on.

If only all gifted children behaved in this manner. Or at least mine. I can promise you that in at least one family, with at least on PGlet, this was not how it went down.

I can certainly imagine that while teaching children in school, you would have such great results with being logical and respectful that you would think it's a sure-fire winning approach. If you had been my son's teacher, it might well have worked in the classroom. But I can tell you that the day would still have been draining (although delightful and wonderful as well) for my DS when he returned home, respect and logic just wouldn't be enough to get that 2 way street or respect going.

I do think that you are uncovering so excellent general guidelines.

1) With everyone, including one's children, try respect and logic first.

2) Observe the person's response, if respect and logic are flowing back in one's direction, then continue.

3) If respect and logic aren't flowing back in one's direction, try plan B.

I'm glad this thread was available. �It helped me talk my way through my current discipline needs and find the resources I need.
I don't think anyone here is a "spare the rod hate the child" religious obedience advocate. �Here's a list of behaviors from the book I just ordered:
http://www.researchpress.com/scripts/details.asp?item=4950&detail_id=116&detail_item=. It's because it's mental health. �What you're describing is religious training. �What we're discussing is life skills training. �Like the Locke articles said, "(a Locke scholar) insists that, given Locke's description of men in their natural condition, although they may in principle have a right to life, liberty, and property, they can meet the objective conditions necessary to enjoy these rights only in government."

Even though this snippet is a quote from a Locke scholar, not Locke himself it still draws on Locke's POV of moral and rational men as those who engage in "creating property" contrasted by the antisocial (immoral and irrational) behaviors which describes the behavior training we were trying to problem-solve for (using parenting books, not history books). �That quote says, "Thus within civil society, the less rational were to be tolerated, and well-treated, but were not to have full rights within a civil government aimed at protecting property."

So that's why a couple mammas already said they don't feel the need to argue on circles every time over every little thing. �Kids aren't always rational, people aren't always rational. We just aren't all the time. �Sometimes it might take more than arguing till you're blue in the face to stop a behavior from being a hinderance and restore rationality and mainly the ability to ENJOY life, liberty, and property (according to Locke). �I think leaving the door open for frequent open discussions on just about anything most of the time is respectful to the young'uns. �I think if we reason with them enough and have a close relationship they'll usually be pretty good at guessing what we would say and why we would say it. �
My posts keep getting too long.
I'll tell you my favorite argument I've had yet with my two year old. �He was crying in the car. �I picked up a book, hoping reading it would soothe him. �The book was "100 ways to get to one hundred.". I picked up the book and read, "one", he cried, "not 1", I read "two", he cried "not 2", I read "three", he cried, "not 3", all the way up to ten. �I don't believe that irrational mindset will ever go away completely because I and everybody I know still gets like that sometimes. �I think the behavior training is to mitigate the damage we cause when we're in that irrational state of mind. �That's why that Locke scholar said, "the less rational were to be tolerated, and well-treated, but were not to have full rights..". He should have meant all of us at sometimes.
Right now, thanks to this thread, I have identified my discipline goals-mainly to make sure the boy enjoys group activities without drama. �And I have identified two resources - skillstreaming (which I wouldn't have found before realizing behavior relates to mental health) and nutured heart which sounds like it will help define the difference between authoritarian and authoritative parenting to my husband, which I have been struggling to explain. � �And it's available on cd he can listen to it on the way to work. Everybody says both parents should be on the same page with discipline. But as new parents we have two different views of what discipline looks like. The nurtured heart looks like something we can both understand and get on the same page over; it looks like it addresses several points the hubby and i couldn't get on the same page about with a all-around acceptable solution.

Well, there are plenty of situations where the reasons for a decision I've made are not a 'need to know' for my DS10. That's not to say that I don't (often) provide an explanation/reasoning, but again it's not something that he's *entitled* to. And as has been the case for us in the past, providing explanations opens the door for negotiations, in his opinion. See, in his mind, if he can come up with a reasonable argument supporting his opposing position, then surely it must follow that we'll change our mind and allow whatever it is he's after. Having exercised this in the past, DS has taken it to mean that it applies to EVERYthing and he loves to argue. He's a persistent type and even though continuing to belabor a point is not to his advantage, it's most definitely in his makeup .

I'm of the mindset that blind obedience is not always best, however, it's necessary in some cases, safety being the biggest. As a kid, I hated "because I said so" - as a parent, sometimes I use it myself. There are times/places/situations to question and then there just simply aren't. As DS has grown, my parenting has changed to meet the needs of each stage and even to improve upon areas where I feel I didn't make the best decisions and where I can see the results of 'flaws' in my thinking.

Ultimately, just as I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all approach to the educational matters of gifted kids (or any kid, for that matter), I also don't believe there's a one-size-fits-all approach to parenting. Sure, some things would be an ideal and if all children were the same, it'd be great. But, there are different personalities, temperaments, thought processes, reasoning abilities, etc. to take into account.

If we ran our household as a democratic republic with consent of the governed, it would be mayhem.

We do usually explain our decisions and have defined categories for why we say no (safety; morals; inconvenience to others encompass almost all of them). But minors do not have a say in defining the categories or in consequences for misdeeds.

Their neural capacity for judgment is not fully developed yet, and mine is.

DeeDee

Lucky you; I'm still working on mine.

LOL. Mine is not working perfectly, but at least the wiring is in place; whereas it's not even wired in for people younger than 20 or so.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/teenbrain/work/adolescent.html

DeeDee

zhian - I get what you are saying, and I do agree with the principle of what you are saying. I do find it upsetting when I see adults treating children as 'not quite people' and I agree that where needs to be mutual respect. Absolutely 'because I said so' won't cut it, at least not very often or for very long.

But the thing is, being a parent is hard, hard, HARD, and I doubt anyone can do it without at least occasionally making decisions counter to their principles. And because mutual respect doesn't happen early, and children - even gifted ones - don't have the ability to always accurately predict the future, it is always a balancing act.

I'll give you an example. My LO still wears diapers to sleep. Every morning he has to get up and take his diaper off. And because he doesn't like transitions - every morning he fights it. Every morning we restate the case: you have to take your diaper off because you will get a diaper rash, etc, etc, etc. And every morning he screams NOOOOO! and throws himself on the floor. On a good morning I can go through the list, talk him into it, get the nappy off and then get on with the day. On a morning where I have been up 5-6 times and been lucky to sleep for four interrupted hours all night, and its the 3rd night in a row like that? Well, I'm only human and it is very likely to become "Just take the diaper off now!"

The other thing you probably have picked up on now is that this is an area where parents disagree with each other. (Just visit a few mothers groups sheesh!) You are also in the position on this board where you are going to be placed as an 'outsider' criticizing 'insider' behavior. So be warned! LOL!

But, as I said, even the most well intentioned parent is going to loose it occasionally. Because being a parent is really, really hard.

ETA: I just wanted to make it clear I was thinking of parents I know irl, in case any pp thought I was talking about them.

Wow, you guys are awesome, thanks so much.

We started the token system on Saturday and so far (fingers crossed) it's working REALLY well. He's already put a value on them and is realizing how things he used to take for granted "cost" now. So it looks like it's working. The kids are so much nicer to each other and there's been a lot less yelling.

I'm still interested in the meds, but I want to see how this system works first. School starts on the 10th, so I'd also like to see how that goes too.

Good luck, kd976, I hope it works out for you all.