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Joined: Feb 2011
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A verbal IQ of 147 is more than a full standard deviation above the usual gifted cut off of two standard deviations above the mean. It falls into the "exceptionally gifted" range when you look at the breakdown on the Hoagies' Gifted site. This is higher than the "optimally gifted" range. I would look at the highest score to judge his level of need, because that area is what is going to be the driving force. There is a pretty big gap here between verbal and performance, which pulls down the FSIQ. This is not unusual, and not something I'd be too concerned with at this age, but it is something to watch as he gets older to make sure that it doesn't reflect actual visual or motor issues or an LD. He is in OT for fine motor, so this makes perfect sense. I feel good keeping him in it just based on this. We are paying for private OT, he's at the low end of normal so doesn't qualify for free services. Sometimes I wonder if he needs it, but I'd rather him get it and not need it, than the other way around. Thanks for you reply. 
I can spell, I just can't type on my iPad.
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I just have a few brief comments. First, I was initially not terribly impressed with the reading scores, and was curious about why things weren't adding up in my head. As best I can tell though, his achievement scores were not calculated as an almost 4 year old. Perhaps the tester did that to get the composite score, which isn't always attainable at a younger age. Regardless, the scaled scores he earned are probably considerably higher than the ones listed above. I wanted to point that out, because the 130 level reading scores are much more managable than ones that might be considerably higher. His math is likely in the GT range as well. Do you have anything written along with those scores? A typical computer printout for example will typically share "norms based on <usually child's actual age or grade>". That changes things somewhat for me. The IQ is also high, but doesn't always answer placement questions either. My son was an early reader, but was never tested in that age range, so I'm not sure how high his achivement might have been. On my older software, I'm getting pretty extreme highs for a kid with your listed GE's that is not yet 4 years old. I think you should absolutely retest him once he's 6 or so. Just to show that public school can work, my son has been in one for the duration. Well, actually K was private to get around the cutoff. But it hasn't been easy. We've had to take some pretty radical steps as far as acceleration. But for our total family dynamics, having DS IN school was desirable. I absolutely agree with kaibab that a certain number should never dictate a certain plan. And it bothers me that psychologists will often buy into that. We were told when our son was first tested that many people would want to grade skip him, but that we should never, never do that. She actually advised that he take up tennis instead (????). Long story short, we ignored her advice, and did what we felt best at each step along the way. DS is now 12, and the ship is still afloat,  . Having a resource like this site can be a life saver. I suggest you pull up a cyber chair and stick around,  . Welcome! Unfortunately, I did not get anything other than the summary I posted. I didn't even receive the subtest scores that I see others posting. I'm going to call the psych tomorrow and ask about the WJ-III scoring and see if I can get a more indepth report. Thank you so much for your insight! PS, excuse my ignorance, but what are the "GE's?" 
I can spell, I just can't type on my iPad.
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When I read about children who score around the same level, most information says that his range, which is just inside "highly gifted" according to Hoagies, are okay in public school with differentiation or enrichment. ... I guess I am just confused as to why the scores don't mirror what he is saying. Amber - I hate to ask, but could you send a link to exactly what you are looking at from Hoagies that you are reading? It's a big site. Also - Go back to 5 Levels of Giftedness, and look at the end of the book, and see what Ruf says about this issue. My son is Level 3, but his scores fell a bit differently, and he crossed the DYS cut off line, so even Level 3 is 'gifted enough' that a certain personality of child would get pretty fed up with regular school. The thing to remember is that 'Gifted' has no standard meaning. Some school districts use 'top 3%' while others use 'top 5%' and a few use 'top 10%.' Your son's verbal abilities are in the top - help me Dottie! - 0.2%, so it isn't a like your kid is '1 in a hundred' is is that he's rarer than that! Also - getting a school to do 'differentiation and enrichment - to the extent needed' isn't easy, although many of us have achieved it. I think that if done right, a lot of kids with much scores could really enjoy school with differentiation and enrichment - especially subject acceleration. Remember that your child is really young, and some key 'personality factors' aren't clear yet. The most important data in all of this - to me- is that his current preschool isn't working for him socially even though you have a preschool teacher who knows what Davidson is.This is key, because MOST preschool teachers have no idea what Davidson is, haven't ever heard of it. This suggests 2 possibilities: 1) You live in a neighborhood where unusually gifted kids aren't so unusual. This is very good news. 2) She has some personal reason to know what Davidson is, and she is 'hinting' that she has vital secret information to share with you if you would like to receive it. Sort of an underground railroad of 'family to family' support. So go back and ask her about how she has heard of Davidson and ask her to share whatever stories are rattling around in her head about 'gifted.' Your son's scores are very very close to DYS cutoffs, and remember that 2/3rd of kids in the program are bunched up around the cutoff line - it's because of the shape of the tail. Nowadays the tail is broken off just a bit to the right of your son's scores because the test-makers have acknowledged that they can't really measure differences well up where the air is so thin, and just created a 'hard stop' at 160. But the bottom line is that if you son was invited to a birthday party of a child to happened to have invited all DYS kids, he would have a wonderful time, and you'd be in tears to see him acting so 'normal' among other 'just like him' kids. And the best news is regardless of the vagaries of 3 points on the Verbal scale, there is a Hoagie's list of conferences that are open to whoever wants to go! Love and More Love, Grinity I was referring to this table, http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/highly_profoundly.htmHis FSIQ puts him right inside "highly gifted." I appreciate your response! His preschool teacher is still close with a former PG student who is DYS, so that is where she heard it from. The part you posted about going to a party with kids like him made me cry just imagining it. LOL! I don't know where he will fit in yet, but I'm going to try my hardest to find somewhere! I can see we have some things to think about, where's that instruction manual this kid was supposed to come with?
I can spell, I just can't type on my iPad.
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ok, here goes- First of all, I agree with Acu's idea of just looking at the strongest score - which puts him beyond the highly gifted catagory, but for the sake of argument, lets lowball, and say - ok, he's 'only' HG: Level of Giftedness Full Scale IQ score WISC-IV, WPPSI-III
source: Assessment of Children Extended IQ score WISC-IV
source: Technical Report #7 WISC�IV Extended Norms and publisher's 2008 NAGC presentation Full Scale IQ score SB-5
source: Ruf Estimates of Levels of Giftedness Full Scale IQ score WISC-III, WPPSI-R, SB-4, SB L-M
gifted or moderately gifted (G or MG) 130-138 130-145 120-129 130 - 145 (132-148 SB-4)
highly gifted (HG) 138-145 145-160 125-135 145 - 160 (148-164 SB-4)
exceptionally gifted (EG) 145-152 160+ 130-140 160 - 180 (SB L-M only)
profoundly gifted (PG) 152-160 175+ 135-141+ 180 and above (SB L-M only) HG and Ruf Level 3 are a pretty good match. Most Davidson YSP kids are HG on a table like this one, and Ruf Level 3 is very common there, so be aware that you are running into a difference in definition. I happen to agree with YSP and lump everyone with a Verbal or Performance subscore over 145 into the PG catagory...but I don't deny that kids in that big catagory face very different challenges in their path to adulthood. I also haven't personally seen the value of having an EG and PG seperate catagory, but I dont' deny that there are parents who find it meaningful. Let's say your kid 'just HG' - so what does that page say about kids who are HG and what they need? [quote] Highly gifted children tend to do well in congregated gifted classes, such as offered in a few larger districts across the United States. These classes are most successful when they use a more in-depth curriculum, which also moves at a faster pace. Gifted children are different not only in their faster learning, but by their deeper interest and level of understanding. Both these differences must be addresses in a successful educational situation.[\quote] That sounds like an extreme need to me. Don't lump you kid with MG (here we say Optimally Gifted, or OG) when the Full Scale is one point above and the highest subscale is a whole standard deviation above that! If you want to use the logic that one point above the cut off isn't 'real' then you have to commit to the logic of seeing the 147 as 'almost' Davidson YSP - because YSP doesn't care a rat's xxx about Full Scale, only strengths. So lets keep it simple and say yes, By this particular chart 139 is HG, and but a little star there to remind us about the very rare 147 in Verbal (which is what folk happen to see all the time in school, anyway) If you happen to live in one of the few larger districts that offer a congregated gifted class, then no problem. But do you? If not, then seriously consider homeschooling or gradeskip/subject accelerations - it is possible to make either option work. Ask Dottie to 'fess up about how she got out her giant sheers and made cut and paste out of the standard local public school offerings. Yup, in retrospect she made it all work just fine - and so did I and so will you, in retrospect, whatever choice you choose. I just want to show you how easy it is to slip into denial: You said: When I read about children who score around the same level, most information says that his range, which is just inside "highly gifted" according to Hoagies, are okay in public school with differentiation or enrichment. What I read on that same exact page is that he needs a congregated full time gifted class with a speically designed challenging and fast curriculum that is ony availible in a few districts. See what can happen when the 'denial glasses' are on. But good for you for noticing that there is a mismatch somewhere. Go Team! Love and More Love, Grinity
Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
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I see exactly what you are saying, thank you for taking my denial glasses off! You are right about that, I think I was trying to downplay it a little bit so I'm not so freaked out about all of this. Lol. I'm working my way back reading all of the past threads to get some ideas as to how to go about schooling this boy.
I truly appreciate everyone's help!
I can spell, I just can't type on my iPad.
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I think I was trying to downplay it a little bit so I'm not so freaked out about all of this. Lol. If only youwe could change reality by fudging the numbers - we would probably all do the same. Good for you for reading the back-threads. Lots of brave pioneering families represented there. If you feel like it, make up a summary of 'what we over here have learned' - it think it would be really useful. Also check out this thread soon - http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....y_Gifties_Aimee_Yermish_b.html#Post81974Smiles, Grinity
Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
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Thank you for the link! I'll check it out.
I can spell, I just can't type on my iPad.
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Just came across this on his report,
"I personally administered the testing, and the testing results can be considered valid scores. Because *, who was just turning 4, was beyond the norms for Kindergarten, the scores above compare him to beginning 1st graders. Although he did not get a valid score for math fluency, his scores overall suggest that he should start Kindergarten next Fall and be allowed to accelerate particularly in reading."
I'm not sure if this part, "Because ****, who was just turning 4, was beyond the norms for Kindergarten, the scores above compare him to beginning 1st graders." means that he was scored as a first grader, or if his scores are at a first grade level.
(I added the **** where my ds's name was.)
I can spell, I just can't type on my iPad.
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Did you see my previous post Amber? It sort of snuck in while you were responding to another post. Anyway, that's exactly the conclusion I came to...that he was scored as a beginning 1st grader. The fact that his reading still tests gifted means his actual age based scores are even more extraordinary. The report sounds very helpful, but I would also ask to have the data punched against just his age, as those numbers are important. I just saw it, thank you! I will certainly be calling tomorrow, because I want the rest of the pieces. Thanks again for your help.
I can spell, I just can't type on my iPad.
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Just came across this on his report,
I'm not sure if this part, "Because ****, who was just turning 4, was beyond the norms for Kindergarten, the scores above compare him to beginning 1st graders." means that he was scored as a first grader, or if his scores are at a first grade level. He was scored as if he was a beginning first grader, but his scores reflect that he *performed* more like a child beginning second grade (for the lowest reading scores, 2.1) or third grade (for the highest one, 3.1). So, at age four, he is performing three to four years ahead of age peers. I don't really think there is any doubt that he is "severely" gifted.
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