Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Advocay Rant

I cannot believe how stubborn some administrators can be. I understand that they mean well, but they are stuck in a box. We are trying to have DS8 attend 6th grade middle school for Math. He has completed 4th and 5th using EPGY, but has asked to be in a classroom with students as opposed to a computer screen. ES principal seemed to be on board, and so is the HS about future placement. However when meeting with the MS principal (6th to 8th grade) he is against it. And he informed us both the ES principal and the HS VP is also against it. Funny they never voiced that to us. MS principal means well, but is not up to date. In his words the MS is not a good place for 8 year olds, social damage will be done by having DS8 attend a 6th grade class. Their was no issue about ability (Unless he kept that to himself), it was all about social. The kids are just much bigger, and a number of them will not be nice to DS8, and he will be picked on, and walking to a class can be (not dangerous) but he will attract negative attention. He even went as far as to take us to a 6th, 7th and 8th grade math class to show us how big the kids in a MS are. One funny side note, in the 8th grade Algebra class where two of my Boy Scouts who both know and play with DS8 at campouts, when DS8 comes along, they both said Hi when I came in. The principal asked us what our purpose was, and what we hoped to accomplish, he wanted to make sure that we understood how detrimental this choice would be. Both DW and I explained how we have not pushed math, and how last year we did very little during the school year and almost no math over the summer. He did suggested self guided learning, but DW explained we did not want our son just to be given work sheets and have him left alone at a desk. We tried this last year in ES, and DS only worked on Math about 20% of the time he normally would work on Math. The final outcome is maybe a trial for 1 week, if all teachers agree, and the head of Elementary instruction for the district agrees. Does not look good, that was the person who stopped the grade skip back in K. We left the school after K and then returned last year for 2nd, but because of a new ES principal we where able to get a grade skip to 3rd. I just don�t understand the rigid belief of all must be at the same age. Unbelievable. Will have to see if she says its ok, if not next step school supervisor, and if needed, up to board of education. On a good note DS was elected to school treasurer this year. He gave an interactive speech with a riddle and some humor. Lat year he ran for post master and did not get it, but tried again this year.

Edwin,
Hang in there. You need to educate this guy that he is back in the stone age when it comes to acceleration.

I would write a letter to all of the people involved (isn't it easy to pass the buck when there are a bunch of people) and include some of the studies that show no social harm to kids who are accelerated. My DS8 is in 5th grade math and the kids are lovely to him (Heck, I'll write an affidavit for you if you want!), the teacher reports that if they start math and he isn't there yet from his main 3rd grade class, the kids all say things like, "we need to wait because A________ isn't here yet and we don't want him to miss anything." We have seen some of the kids out of school and they wave and save nice things to my DS. If there are behavioral issues at the school, I would point out to the Principal (maybe not now) that reflects on his inability to build an inclusive community at his MS!!!

Anyway, keep pushing and hang in there! You can do it! Keep pushing up that chain of command if you need to.
Cat

Thanks Cat, I am taking deep breaths. We will know more by Tuesday. Thats when he said he would get back with us. (Monday is a holiday in our District) I am not the patient type. I have almost sent off all the data I have to make my case (How much should you send?), and e-mailed the two school board of directors I know, and called one or two of the other MS principals to see if they would be more acomadating. But, I will wait until Tuesday.

I would work into it that your goal is for him to learn (or continue to learn) to work within the classroom instruction setting with his math, rather than being isolated with online instruction or worksheets off by himself. That's what we're struggling with here, with DS8 who is in 5th grade math and now working with a HS teacher on ALEKS. Our school, while fabulous in most ways, still has that quirk about sending him to middle school with the big kids. We're working on it.

Funny, that was one of the issues that kept coming up with DS8's move up to 5th grade math - everyone kept saying "but what about when he is in 4th grade, you want him to go to the Jr. High?" And I luckily had the out where I said "lets worry about that in the future, for now, it is the same building and we all agree 5th grade is a good spot from his skills right now." I actually wouldn't mind a year where DS does Aleks on his own with some instruction on the side, I think he would get much further along then he will in some "general 6th or 7th grade pre-algebra lets review how to multiply fractions and decimals a zillion times" class.

I think it was good that the 2 year jump looked "just right" because if it had been 3 years, that would have made things much more complicated since he would have to go to the Jr. High, which would mean dealing with multiple supervisors and principals. At the end of 5th grade, they take a placement test for which math they go into in Jr. High, and I think they will just have to put him where he tests into, hard for them to argue against their own test. I will see, because if he scores well, they have to put him into 7th grade math, which is another grade skip, and I would guess that will create even more concern (a 4th grader in 7th grade math -eeekk). Really, I just think the adults involved have no understanding of how kids function in this sort of situation - the big kids aren't threatened by a little kid with a big brain, it isn't cool to pick on a little kid, and they end up playing big brother/sister to them. Maybe there are some stories of teasing, bullying, but I think they are far outweighed by success stories.

Edwin, yes, just wait until Tuesday. The more measured you can be in your response, the less they will think you are one of "those parents" and it will help in the long run.

Thanks Nautigal, and yes Catalana, I wlll wait until Tuesday, and my response wil be measured. I wish they would use a placement test for acctual placement in DS school. They did have him test on 4th and 5th grade year end tests, and he did fine 90%. Some gaps, but quickly fixed already. I am hopeful that we get the one week trial (I think needs to be two). The attitude seems to be almost sanctomoneus (I cant spell). You as parents will see how bad this choice is. The final words given us was. Really think about this, what your goal is, why you are doing this, and the damage that can be caused by such a move.

Edwin, you should be prepared to explain to them how you'll prep your kid to minimize the proposed "damage." That may reassure them.

We did explain a trial grade acceleration carefully to our kid, just in case it really wasn't a good idea. (But it was.) Learning with peers really matters for some kids, and a younger kid can be accepted graciously by older ones. (Sometimes it has a "mascot" quality, which isn't terrible.)

Let us know how it goes...

DeeDee

To their credit, I could name a ton of parents in our district who would happily push their child when the child wasn't ready and the rest be d**ned, just to be able to say their kid was ahead by X amount. Coming to terms with that concern in my own district helped a lot, because it helped me understand that they had my DS's interests at heart. What I had to help them get was that he was miserable in the current situation. I pretty much had to take full responsibilty for the accel. and we called it experimental and agreed that if it didn't go well DS would drop back to 4th (so only up 1 year instead of 2) if things didn't go well - and this was after everyone agreed he was ready for 5th grade math without any issues. Surprise, surprise, he got 100% on his first math test, and as I said, the older kids are great with him, so now there are not any concerns any longer.

But, it took a long time to get them to see that I wasn't just pushy and that this really was in DS's best interests. I think they almost believe it now... almost.

I think a big piece of it is they want you to accept responsibility for the decision - that was clearly the case at our school.

Cat

In prepping DS8, he was in a math club I ran last year at the ES. He was 7 and competed with the 5th graders (that are now 6th graders at MS). He did very well, and they already know and seem to accept him. Also thier are a number of 8th graders at the MS that are in the Boy Scout troop that I am Commettee Chair and Assisatant Scout Master. They know DS from some camp outs and meetings. The MS principal now knows this, but he did point out MS is not the same as a select small group. He explained they do not have anything but regular 6th grade math with no class for honors, or quick learners. They offer nothing until 8th grade. I also understand he means well, our oldest DS18 was in this school and I was active with the school during his time there. Also the MS prinicpal's son was in a cub pack I started 10 years ago, for about 1 year. He is just a very ridged, but very good man. His policy on fighting was a problem for us with our oldest. The principal states that if you are hit, you must run away. If you strike back you can be expelled. I have always had a problem with that. We where able to help our oldest, without having him strike back, we did that by having him take Boxing, it gave him a lot of confidance, which helped the problem go away.

Ahh, true, but one math class is not middle school in its entirety; it's actually just one small group.


What about the kid that hit first?

I might be outside the norm here, but I encourage my kids to hit back IF someone else hits them first. In particular, I find that this approach is quite effective against bullies.

Val

I'm the same way - I would be on my kids so hard if they hit first, but if someone hits them, they are allowed to defend themselves. And I'm no Bruce Willis...

Well not so good at the district level, today they responded to us. We met with Elementary School, Middle School and High School. They forwarded our request to the person in charge of Elementary School instruction, and the assistant to the school superintendent. Their response was that 6th grade Middle School would be detrimental socially for an 8 year old and even possibly not safe. They will allow his 5th grade math teacher to give him independent study for 5th and 6th if needed, and provide the materials needed for that. I think I liked it better with him learning online, unfortunately he really wants to interact with other students, and not be off on a computer, or with a book by himself. So now what? I have asked to meet with the District Superintendent. I have sent the previous group a lot of information (Via web-links) about this topic. I do not believe they looked at it. Hopefully the Superintendent will be more hopeful. I have also contacted one of the school board members to see if the overall topic of how the district deals with this topic can be addressed, being that they seem to have no detailed plan. I pointed out that perhaps there is a disconnect between their feelings and anecdotal evidence, and what the actual data says. I haven�t started burning bridges, but I am still moving politely, and non-confrontationally forward.

((hugs)) Edwin

I wish, last year I ran a math club for 4th and 5th at my sons school. Thier was at least a few that had the ability to do 6th. But the districts issue is social. I have been informed they have never moved an ES 5th grader to MS 6th grade. The good thing is the District superintendent is now following up and will get back to me on Monday. Next week we may start DS again on EPGY, and maybe pay to have an online instructor.

What he is really saying is that when he hits you, he wants you to run away otherwise he will really hit you. The man is a bully.

This policy has been ruled illegal in every case brought for suit. Everyone has the right of self-defense when threatened. If your state is a No-Retreat state then the school district can probably be explicitly sued for damages if harm came from something like this and that man can also be held personally liable.


What state are you in and what is that state's policy and is the district in violation of that policy?

What precedent exists within the district? In Surrounding districts? In top districts in the area? Can you get copies of acceleration policies from other districts to show them?

What procedures do they have to arrive at a decision like this and can they provide the documents showing they properly followed procedure?

Can you contact an advocacy agency (ie DYS) or professional advocate ( Pyschologist ) to help you?

There is now published literature on the effects of acceleration and you can use it to buttress your case.

http://www.tagpdx.org/accelera.htm

IMHO this man is a bully and you have to get him to knuckle under now or he will just lord it over you in other ways.

Implicit ridicule is an effective method and I'll bet a female professional advocate taking him apart in front of the school board would be the best tactic.

Here is another idea.

If you cannot reach them from a rational argument, then you need to use emotional arguments with them and induce them. People who do things from emotion will do things for fear, jealousy, altruism, and or vanity. It then becomes a sales job.

My guess is that given their rigidity, fear will only make them more conservative in their decisions. Altruism would be used to justify the "social" part. That leaves vanity and jealousy.

Perhaps finding out what they aspire to or are proud of or jealous of may give you the foot in the door. Maybe using other districts' policies as a means to induce both emotions would get them off their rock? It would also give them a model to follow and political cover..

On the bully issue, the MS principal and I may never agree. He is a good man, and is fair, he just has a zero tolarance for any violence. I am sure if my son defended himself, he would not be expelled. Most of my issues were whne our oldest went thier 4 years ago. Our youngest is not thier yet. The road bloack has not just been the MS principal view on social problems for an 8 year old in a class with 11 year olds. It is a district view. They do have a policy for acceleration, but it is vague, and subjective. I belive the strongest oponant besides the MS principal is the Ditrict person in charge of Elementary education. We contacted this person when DS was 5 about a grade skip for K. She was against it because she was grade skipped and had a bad experance. The only resaon we recived the current grade skip was a change of the prinicapal at the current ES. The prinicpal has lots of leway on this within thier school. She agreed last year to it and has been helpful, although she also has concerns about DS going to the MS. I am hopeful my meeting with the District Superentendent will go well. I have also e-mailed one of the board members on the larger question of district policy. Our district must have seen this before, thier are over 22k in this district. I will also check out other district policy and see what they do, as well as invlove the Davidson counslor.

So sorry about the district idiocy. What, they can't keep him safe in the middle school for 1 class? I would challenge them on that particular issue up front.

Here are a few resources that might help:

http://www.accelerationinstitute.org/Resources/Policy_Guidelines/ (very helpful website overall)
http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/articles_print_id_10314.aspx

You can also do a search for model acceleration guidelines or just "acceleration guidelines." I've only collected a few - from DeKalb County, Union Grove, Wisconsin, and a model from the Ohio Department of Education. I bet you would find more out there.

I'd also have the Iowa Acceleration Scale with me and refer to it.

I would directly address with the super. that you feel like this is being dismissed because you think one person involved is basing her decision on her own personal feelings and experiences. Say that while she is entitled to her opinion, she should not be making educational decisions for other peoples' children based on such anecdotal evidence and that it is unprofessional to do so. Point out all of the solid education research out there supporting acceleration and state to the super. that you expect the district to rely on research, not personal opinion which may be unfounded in reality(well, I don't think most education research is very solid, but better than a story from one person).

You can do it!

Cat

I have to agree with Catalana here. Is their Middle School really so out of control that they can't allow an 8-year-old in for even a fifty-minute math class? This doesn't say much for their ability to run the school.


I'm not sure this could be stated any better! I agree completely.

Val

Edwin,
I'm sad to hear about this. The fact that your son already knows boys in the MS class from your scouting would suggest to me that there would be people in the class watching out for your son. I also think bringing the Iowa Acceleration Scale to the meeting could help. If the superintendent sees on paper that your child had a strong case for a full skip to MS then maybe access to one class will seem like a compromise (?). I really hope your FC can help.
Chrys

One bit of good news, We will meet with the District Superintendat, on Thursday. She recieved the e-mail from the Davidson Institute, and called them. She has asked to meet my wife, myself, and our son (This is a first). Will know more next week.

Edwin,

Good luck with your meeting with the Super.

Cat

It's amazing that your Sup called Davidson - I hope your lucky streak continues!
Grin

Update: Met with the District Super and it went well. She has agreed to the subject skip to 6th grade MS math. She also called our rep at Davidson and spoke with her, I believe it was helpful. She has also just completed the book the Outliers, this also added to her process. She spoke directly with DS8 to make sure he was ok with everything, and let him know that if he wants to go back to ES and independent study he can. She also gave him her card if he ran into issues. She indicated that along each step of the way the ES, MS and district personal where correct in what they suggested. However she believes that any parent & student willing to keep pursuing this option should be given the chance.

Now the hard part, if this sticks it will mean that twice a day for the next two years I will pick him up at school drive him the 2 blocks to Middle School and then pick him up an hour later and return him. After that who knows. The odd part is not that the math will be too hard; I still think it may be too easy. But the work product, the writing will be more then DS is used to. So will just see how it goes. Thank you to everyone for your support, encouragement and advice. One other bit of good news DS8 was elected school treasurer.

Edwin - That's wonderful news! I love that the super gave your DS her card. Congrats to you and your DS on your advocacy.

And contgrats on DS being elected treasurer! Good day.

(Too bad about no transport provided by the school. But maybe if everything else works out, you can ease into that request.)

CFK Im ok with the driving, just whining. Two years ago we had him in a great school but the drive was about an hour each way and on a friday afternoon it could be as long as almost 2 hours. I work 5 minutes away and have flexable hours. I really do feel for the parents that drive long distances every day, or have had to move and/or change jobs to make things work for their children.

Congratulations on the win!

Edwin,

Wonderful news! A big congrats to you and DS (on both the acceleration and the treasurer position).

I am fascinated by this reasoning however:

"She indicated that along each step of the way the ES, MS and district personal where correct in what they suggested. However she believes that any parent & student willing to keep pursuing this option should be given the chance."

So whether a child gets a proper education becomes purely a function of their parents' persistence. That is so illogical and frustrating, and harms children who have parents who do not have the resources (financial, psychological, intellectual) to pursue the fight. Sigh.

Still, great news for you and you should be proud you stuck with it.

Cat

Cat, I thought that was an odd comment, maybe she wants to see a committed parent. I believe that at the school level that some requests may be odd, and should die on their own. While others need a little more persistence. I fully believe that they do not believe its in this students best interest overall, but they are willing to supersede their belief system and give it a chance. Especially if the parents are strongly on board.

Edwin - congratulations on your successful advocacy. Hope your son enjoys!


This reasoning is the kind of thing that lead to homeschooling for us. Every child should be educated appropriate regardless of how many hoops a parent is willing to jump through and how loud they're willing to be. Many families just don't have the time or energy to fight long or hard enough to get results. I personally know kids who suffer for these reasons and it drives me crazy.

Thanks for sharing the good news Edwin!

I always think what if in the 6th grade math class the teacher used a 2nd grade math book, oh then the mothers would be mad why? Oh because their kids would not be learning, they would be doing remedial work. That is how we feel but we never get validated.

I had to tell my DS7 to NOT raise his hand too much in math, only raise it 3 time max, teacher said "i know you are good at math but you have to stop bragging" boy he was mad, he said he is proud not bragging. Teachers do not like when kids are smarter than they are. And he pointed out a grading error so now forget it he is on her SH*T list

Edwin,
Congrats on the new plan! So glad that they came through and great news on the Super being so supportive. How exciting that she called Davidson! My DS6 was placed in a 4th grade math class at a different school this year. DS is in 2nd grade but skipped K so chronologically should be in 1st and is a younger 6 too. That means that some of the kids in his 4th grade class are about 4 years older then him. Anyhow, it's been about a month and so far it has been great. The kids are very accepting of him and supportive. 4th still isn't a challenge for him but they pull him aside in the class to give him more challenging work and he still gets enrichment and is on the Math Olympiads team this year so that should help him to have some challenges. Not sure what the plan for next year is as I think he will be above 5th grade and may have to go to the middle school at 7..but one step at a time so I am trying not to think too far ahead.

I just wanted to say that our plan for DS6 is to go straight to the other elementary school on their bus. He sits in the front seat with some 5th grade kid he seems to get along with. Then he does morning work with the 4th grade and then they do an hour block of math. Then he goes on a bus by himself back to his other school and goes through the rest of the day with them (there happens to be a bus that goes by there from his school around that time). His 2nd grade class does math at the same time so he doesn't have to make up any work. In the beginning they had a hall monitor walk him back and forth, then they tried to match him with another kid that they thought would be good to walk with him. Now I think he just goes on his own. I am not too worried about the social aspect of the kids in the class because really they are supposed to be doing math and if the teacher has no control over the room and lots of other inappropriate conversations were going on I would be quite concerned. Anyhow, so far so good. thought I would share too because maybe they could work something out so you would only have to make one trip. : ) Hope it works out well and hope it is a smooth transition for DS.

Shellymos
Glad to see it is working well for you. I am hopeful that it goes as well for DS8. He is also doing the Math Olympiad. Lat year was his first year. Our ES is k-5th so he had some time working with last years 5th graders. MOEMs has been a challenge for him. I am not sure if it�s because of the math (It is difficult) or the instructor (Which is myself). I started this last year and most of the 30 students did not do well. Of the 25 questions last year, only one student received 17, one 14 (DS8), a few received over 10, and most under 10. For those of you unfamiliar with the Math Olympiad, their are 5 contest with 5 questions for each contest. They are once a month starting in November. I am hopeful that this year I can do a better job of teaching them problem solving skills. Its funny how many teachers think I am a math wiz, I have had to let them know, I am not only not a math wiz, but I am not even that good with math. Lucky for me its still ES, and I have the answers and how to solve them.

Math Olympiad does seem pretty cool. He hasn't done it before but is on the 4th grade team this year. They met for the first time yesterday, but gave them problems to work on throughout the week. I like that it is not your typical math and is more outside the box and problem-solving from what I have seen so far. I am looking forward to seeing him have to actually think and not just know it right away. I think this will be good for him, and also to have him get some wrong at times. I really am hopeful it is a challenge to him. I am not ashamed to admit that the calcudoku's he brought home yesterday from enrichment were a challenge to me...but surprisingly were not really too much of one for him. But I do think the olympiad problems will be. And if not, they can move him to the 5th grade team. : ) Hope you have a great year!

This is good news! We are going to be in this situation next year, except middle school is in the same building but different calendar and daily schedule, so every time I hear about another child straddling es and ms, I feel more confident about it.

Please keep us all posted how it goes!