Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment IQ Tests

Sorry I was not precise. By "many of these people" I meant to refer to top artists and intellectuals in general.

Here is one source. The * indicate "confirmed member of Mensa."

http://knol.google.com/k/iq-scores-of-famous-people-past-and-present#

Austin,

Thanks so much for moving this topic to it's own thread. That was very wise of you and compassionate to the OP (original poster) for the test results thread.


Buzz - Good noticing that this your concerns were way off topic to the active conversation. I'm glad that you have been able to face a bit your concerns that when your child(ren) enter the school system there may be issues. I'm wondering if you read many of the posts here before you jumped in with your observations.

I strongly recommend that if you have ideas that you think will bother people that you start a new topic, with it's own title, and say a short paragraph about what your concern is.

Such as:
"Historically IQ tests have been used so thoughtlessly. Is this still going on today? Does this bother anyone else here? Can you tell me some good and bad results of IQ testing in your life?"

or -

"I'm the parent of a preschooler who I think might be gifted, but I hate the idea of labling my child. I hate the lable gifted in particular. Does anyone else hate that lable? What have been some ways that the lable has had good or bad results in your life?"

Then, as the thread picks up steam, you can share some of your observations. We like page-long response, just not in the middle of someone else's thread.

You might not agree with everything that everyone here says, but you might find that this is a useful place to think a bit in the company of others who have had some similar experiences.

Want my IQ test?
If, as a parent, you've stopped talking to fellow parents about what you child does or says because they look at you funny, or accuse you of lying, then come over here to the Gifted Issues Discussion Board and get what parents of more normally developing kids get at the bus stop. If people in the grocery store yell at you because you preschooler is reading the food lables, then come over here. If you child is asking deep questions about death, and the meaning of life, or just plain behaving in ways that 'regular parenting books' don't seem to cover, come over here. If you like it here, then stay here. That's MY IQ test.

The Internet is a big place. Supporting parents is what we do here. Looking back at our lives, and our family member's lives through the gifted lens is what we do too, sometimes, because we need to do that to move forward as parents.

I know that the name of this forum is 'Gifted Issues Discussion Forum' and appologise - it really isn't a perfect name, as we focus on 'Help and Support with Issues Parents of Gifted Children often Face'

I'm really curious if there was a gifted program when you were going through school. I'm wondering if you are one of the ones for whom tests don't work, particularly group IQ tests, which we bemoan here on a regular basis. I'm wondering if you are one of the ones who got into a Gifted program and then was so dissapointed that it provided so little. I'm wondering if you have been thinking about homeschooling, how old your chid(ren) is, and what brought you to idly Google search the term gifted, and 1000 more personal things about what your life has been like, and what your hopes are for your family.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

As an adult who was identified PG as a child and whose parents chose the faster isn't better route, I do hear what you are saying. My parents didn't allow me to enter the program that would have put me in college at 12. They wanted me to be well-rounded, creative and "grow" into myself.

Was that the right option? Who knows. It's not like I can go back and try the other way! I know that I grew up feeling like a freak, an oddity who knew the answers quite often better than the teacher, who had few friends until I learned to hide my intelligence and who was shocked to find that I had to study in college to get an A. Did their plan take me farther? Again, who knows. I have a teaching credential and work as a school administrator. My life dream? No, but it makes me happy.

The term gifted makes some people bristle. I understand that, as do most people here. We've heard "all children are gifted" or "all children have gifts but open their packages at different times."

However, none of that addresses the immediate problem many of our children face. My son is sitting in a class with curriculum he mastered 2-3 years ago. Today he will learn place value of 1,000. Three weeks ago he was graphing functions at home.

I think you'll find if you read enough here and do your research that nearly ALL of us would advocate for education that is student-focused and targets individuals, no matter their level. The most damaging assumption is that NO children need anything different from the group. That lessons delivered because that's what's next in the book are required instruction.

If I have to stick a label on my son so that someone will pay attention, I'm happy to do so. A rising tide floats all boats and I can only hope that attention given to him changes the face of education in his entire classroom, perhaps even his school.

Diamond grading exists so that the diamond market will function. That is the only reason. I think you are right to imply that IQ tests commoditize education.


A number of psychologists do have long-term studies that are ongoing on how "gifted" kids progress. There are a number of broader qualitative measures on this.


There is a difference between learning things already known versus exploring new territory. The map is not the territory. Once the map runs out, you get lost.


I think learning is an OODA loop, too.

What you will find by reading the literature others have shown to you is that the tests serve as a fact-creation tool. While the test may miss some kids, they do allow other students to be freed from languishing in classes where they know the subject cold and have for many years. They are freed to move to other classes and learn new material and to work with kids whose minds are as mature as theirs.

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/iowa_accel_scale.htm

In this respect, they really do expand the possibilities for these kids.

And some educators are using the tests to try to ID issues. For instance, several school districts now routinely test kids with discipline issues. Many are found to be GT and are acting out due to frustration. Other districts use the tests to ID kids whose parents do not advocate for them.

--

Some personal history:


I jumped from 7th grade to 10th grade and I really enjoyed school for the first time in years. I used to sit in the back and read during class. I walled myself off from the teachers and students because I had no reason to interact during class. What enabled this jump was a test administered a week after I started 7th grade. I was liberated because that test allowed the school to place me properly.

Do the tests tell the whole story? No. Most of my former AP classmates from HS now have PHDs or MDs. Three classmates are near the top of their profession in the cities in which they live. But they had nowhere near my test scores nor could they match me in class nor did they have my wide range of interests. But they are hugely successful!!!

But, they were all ability grouped from the 9th grade on in a very competitive program. THAT was the critical factor. What is funny, is that I was not tested in this school district and was placed in the bottom group by the counselor who just looked at me. I went back to him the first week and told him I wanted to be in the honors group. Imagine if I had not self-advocated? Wouldn't a test be apropos to at least PLACE someone?

Go back and read my first post on this forum for more stories about schools and misplacement.

http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....cs/18674/My_Recollections.html#Post18674

If you check the first few posts of most of the posters on here, you will see similar trajectories.

Reading others' stories and reading all the posts on this forum and reading the many books suggested on here has brought me a lot of peace by allowing me to understand my life much better.

Note that none of the scores of mathematicians and physicists on

http://knol.google.com/k/iq-scores-of-famous-people-past-and-present#

are confirmed. I am an academic and I know Hawking personally (very well). The IQ often quoted and quoted here is not the result of any IQ test he has ever taken.

I also find the attempts to estimate and compare the IQs of scientists who lived in different historical periods somewhat ridiculous, and not even in line with modern assessments of their work.

I know that I am beating a dead horse. It is a personality flaw of mine. I am bothered by the number of 160-200+ IQ numbers listed there, however. Modern tests don't return numbers like that. Maybe all of the older composers and presidents had IQs at the 99.9th percentile, but I doubt it. I don't doubt that Mozart was gifted. Do I think that someone gave him an IQ test? Probably not. Then again, no one needed to. I think that's why, as someone indicated earlier, gifted is not all about IQ and why DYS, for instance, requires more than an IQ score for admission.

Mensa, on the other hand, only wants your IQ in the 130+ range for admission. I joined solely b/c I thought they might have some useful info for me in learning how to best support my eldest dd when we figured out what was going on with her. I remain a member b/c I've met some good friends through Mensa and some of us get together regularly (and I enjoy the monthly publication).

FWIW, just b/c a website says that these people are confirmed members of Mensa, doesn't make it so. Just looking over the nine show biz people they list, only one of them is listed in the member directory as a member. One of the people listed there without the confirmation star is a Mensa member. None of the famous people in sports nor famous musicians are. I'll allow for the fact that the Welsh wrestler might be a member of an international Mensa chapter and his name, thus, wouldn't appear on American Mensa's roster. The member directory does note that all current members must have their names listed there although other information is at their discretion.

Thank you. You replied while I was typing up my long last reply .

I just heard something interesting, as the US struggles to be competitive going forward and create jobs.

There is an annual super computing conference in San Francisco every year. It was started by some of the biggest names and brightest minds in computing 21 years ago. And most of those were American males who are around 60 now.

The younger members are now mostly from China, India. I was told by one of the founding members that there wasn't one woman from America. The few women were from China, mostly, India, Japan and a couple from Scandinavia.

He said that the original members realized that the brain trust in America is dissapearing and moving to China.

Ren

I have only had IQ testing done on one of my three kids. For DD8, IQ and achievement testing was truly beneficial. DD8 was diagnosed as HG, dyslexic and dysgraphic. The testing helped me provide advocacy for her. It helped the teacher understand that while DD seemed to be an average kid (except in math), she is anything but average. It encouraged her teacher to try new things and find out that there was a whole lot more going on in that little head. Now, DD is in a gifted center program with 504 accommodations. Without those tests, we probably would have kept her in a regular ed classroom and watched her frustration grow without understanding why. We did not test her for bragging rights -- we haven't told people in our circle her IQ. We tested to gain information and insight into our child.

Like many people on this forum, my kid's IQ is in the 99.9 percentile. Finding this out was a bit of a shock. I have appreciated this forum as a place where it is okay to talk about my kid as "gifted" and all of the baggage that comes with it.

No, I didn't read much of the forum before posting. I don't really participate in forums or social networking sites -- I apologize for my poor "netiquette". Not sure what set me off -- but I'm sorry for intruding on your forum...

Truth be told, I'm just a relatively normal person. A late bloomer -- not identified as having any particular academic potential. And yet, through decisions later in life, have reached a place that one might expect to be populated by the "gifted."

And what do I find here? All types of people from all types of backgrounds. What they have in common is that they WANT to be doing what they're doing, are committed to it, work hard, and have a broad range of skills.

By all means, advocate for education that provides an opportunity for everyone to realize their full potential. But beware of idenity politics.

Best of luck,

Buzz out.