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    #83480 08/25/10 08:53 AM
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    Molly Offline OP
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    My DS participated in a research project through a local university. As part of the research they administered the list of tests below. Can anyone give me any input on these scores? There were quite a few tests given and 124 seems to be a reoccurring score. Do these tests roughly correlate to an IQ score? If I had to guess I would have placed his IQ higher than 124. I don't know how much experience the test administrators had since it was all done while he was at his childcare program.

    They indicated in the letter that socres from 115-130 were considered high and scores above 130 were considered very high.

    Kaufman Assessment Battery for Children (K-ABC), nonverbal scale: 124

    Peabody Picture Vocabulary Test - III (PPVT-III): 136

    Comprehensive Assessment of Spoken Language (CASL)
    Sentence Completion: 124
    Paragraph Comprehension: 143
    Antonyms: 16 selected

    Structured Photographic Expressive Language Test - Preschool 2(SPELT-P2): 114

    Expressive Vocabulary Test (EVT): 124

    Bankson-Bernthal Test of Phonology (BBTOP) word inventory standard score: 124

    I would love any input on these tests!



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    Molly Offline OP
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    I suppose I should add that the testing was through a speech and hearing science department. Based on my internet surfing it appears that some of these tests were very specific to the speech/hearing area. I also read that the Peabody has some correlation to the WISC-III. Of course, I am sure my internet search is highly scientific!

    Do you think it is worth asking for the actual scores? It seems to be they converted the scores to fit a rough IQ scale (although I am guessing).

    Last edited by Molly; 08/25/10 09:53 AM.
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    PPVT is an IQ test - I administered those for a research project I was part of in college. The PPVT doesn't require much training to administer - I think I got about 5 minutes of instruction of the "start at the beginning and continue until there are X errors in Y items" type. It's also very quick to administer. I was working with 2 and 3yos, and it took under 5 minutes per kid. What you got was an IQ score, not a raw score.

    I don't have any experience with the other tests. GooglePsychometrist says the K-ABC is a weird amalgam of IQ and achievement, and leads me to believe that the remainder are speech-related, and not intended to be IQ-like.

    Last edited by AlexsMom; 08/25/10 10:27 AM. Reason: add info
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    Molly Offline OP
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    How is early reading related to nonverbal IQ (if at all)? He started reading at 2.5 (self taught) and was reading at solid second grade level before turning four. In theory he may have a higher verbal IQ - right? I apologize for all the questions, I am just beginning to figure all of this out!

    I was planning to have him privately tested after he turns five and this is certainly giving me support that it may be worth the cost.

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    Perhaps this is the wrong place to point this out, but the entire concept of "IQ" is deeply flawed. If "intelligence" could be boiled down to a single number it wouldn't be much good, would it? Human cognition is a very complex process and despite what psychologists like to believe, no test or battery of tests can describe it. We all possess a wide array of skills that reflect both our genetics and our interests and experience.

    Although I don't agree with all of it, this is an interesting link: http://www.gifted.uconn.edu/siegle/research/Correlation/Intelligence.pdf
    I also recommend Stephen Jay Gould's "Mismeasure of Man." Quick read and a very interesting book.

    The fact that all of these tests are reported to be "reliable" -- i.e. there is consistency with scores early in life and later in life, is primarily a function of the fact that most "IQ" tests and their ilk test similar skills, not that the tests are "valid" and actually measure "intelligence." I will eat my words when someone demonstrates that these tests show high consistency with jazz improvisation, or creative writing, or the ability to reduce a complex process to a simple mathematical description.

    "Success" is far more varied than testing, or academics for that matter, can really capture.

    Moreover, I would argue that one should think carefully about labeling a child "gifted" or "intelligent." On the one hand, it could serve as a form of encouragement and that's not all bad. But the downside is that it is inherently a relative term -- i.e. "you are in the top 97%" and may foster a sense of entitlement and lack of empathy with others. It could also be a burden --setting out a specific form of achievement as a goal. It is not necessarily helpful for all children to be saddled with these types of goals.

    The entire issue of a "gifted" label also makes no sense to me, as in my estimation the strategy for raising a child should be the same regardless of what you might label them (of course, I don't think this applies to major issues such as autism spectrum, etc.). If your son is interested in math and reading, then by all means encourage those interests and find the best environment to give him what he wants and needs. But bear in mind that much of these skills are just that -- skills that children develop by interest and practice, and not necessarily inherent abilities that set them apart from other children. Other kids are more interested in soccer or swimming or music and devote their time to these activities. They do these things more and practice them and get good at them. At this young age, this certainly doesn't mean that they will be academically limited in the future...

    I always consider with some bemusement programs like "your baby can read" -- which claims to teach children at very young ages to read. I don't doubt their claims -- surely you can teach children many things early on as they are very smart. However, they cannot make a claim (and there is no evidence for) long-term improvements to reading. Simply because a child is precocious in one aspect of development does not mean that it will persist or transfer to the much wider skillset necessary for future life.

    Sorry for waxing so abstract. The upshot, in my opinion, is that I wouldn't put too much stock in the scores of these tests. Even less in the subscores. Based on his environment (which probably IS in the top 90% in terms of stability and economics), you should expect to see scores on the "high" range. Your son could easily just be a normal kid who likes reading and math.

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    Molly Offline OP
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    Buzz, I would hardly consider myself in the category of putting "too much stock" in these scores. I did not need these scores to tell me that my DS is ahead of his peers academically. I have suspected from a very young age that my son was not entirely "normal" and my job as his parent is to provide him with the opportunities and support he needs to be a happy and productive member of society. I agree with Dottie that these scores are simply a means of having independent data to provide a starting point for discussions with his future school. We really have no choice but to play the game.

    I could provide you a long list of things he is not good at - but I have a great support system outside of this website to deal with most of those issues. I could also provide you a list of other non academic things he is good at - but, again, I am not really sure that discussing youth sports (or whatever it may be) really fits in here.

    My questions about his potential IQ score, based on what is obviously very limited information, is simply looking for confirmation that I should consider additional testing. If he had scored 100 on these tests I would not be posting here. I would have more confidence that the public school system will be able to meet his needs. I will need test scores to place him in a self contained gifted program. These are decisions that I need to make in the next year and these scores are just another piece of the puzzle.

    I would guess that most of us here are at least in the �90th percent in terms of stability and economics.� I am certain that as a group we have higher education levels and household income levels than the average U.S. citizen. Most of did not get to this point in our lives by scoring in the 50th percentile on any test. If my desire to provide appropriate educational opportunities for my children is fostering a sense of entitlement, so be it.

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    Originally Posted by Buzz
    The entire issue of a "gifted" label also makes no sense to me, as in my estimation the strategy for raising a child should be the same regardless of what you might label them (of course, I don't think this applies to major issues such as autism spectrum, etc.).

    There are real differences (some of which we know how to measure) in human cognitive abilities. You recognize that some kids have "major issues" which require different parenting and educational approaches. Maybe by analogy you can see that kids whose cognitive abilities are at the other extreme could also benefit from different strategies.

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    Of course it's important to try to do whatever we can to get the best educational environment for our individual child.

    Testing is also a completely reasonable way to assess someone's current skills in particular areas.

    However, there is a difference between _ability_ and _identity_. So far as I can see, the history of IQ tests, and even the term "gifted," are based on conflating the two. This worries me.

    First, for the epistemological reason: although individual differences among people exist in all traits, the cognitive traits we really care about are almost impossible to measure. Second, ethically: whereas I consider it entirely proper to segregate people according to what they can DO in very specific contexts (like math class), people should not be segregated based on judgments about who they are and what their potential is. We must acknowledge our limits in knowing these things.

    My perspective is (and this is primarily as a parent in a similar situation, not one who has gone through the whole process already), if he's not being challenged in school, and you decide that a different environment would be better for him, and you need to do the testing to get in -- then do the testing.

    You don't need the testing to confirm what you know. Your intuition is far better than a test or battery of tests. Apart from the practical uses of additional tests for getting into school, I can't imagine that the tests aren't going to tell you what you don't already know. If he had scored 100 or 150 on all of the tests, IMHO it shouldn't change your decision-making process one iota.

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    Not all children with advanced verbal skills early on have Asperger's. I wouldn't worry about that unless my child was showing other signs. My youngest, for instance, was saying a few words (and combining a two of them) at 5.5 months old. She'll be 10 here in a month and I am quite certain that the highly socially aware person she is does not have Asperger's.

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