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In other words, when/how do we know if she IS trying to manipulate us, as opposed to simply attempting communication to overcome a language barrier?
By knowing your daughter. When you get to read her signs, there really is a different quality to a frustration/exhaustion tantrum, and an "I want something tantrum". The best thing you can do is watch and learn. (And from what I can tell, that's what we keep doing all along this journey!)
Your daughter is lucky to have a parent who cares so much about her!
First of all, thank you all VERY much for the helpful responses, and so quickly, too!
I feel I might've come across as insensitive or harsh in my first post. I want to stress that I absolutely DO NOT mean to be so, and I try my best to be as understanding and sensitive to her as I can be.
The quick response was because I was "busy" trying to avoid work. You don't sound that way at all, btw. Also, I'm sorry if anything in my post made it come off like that because that was definitely not my intention! I'm also a first time mom and trust me, there is soooo much to learn. It's a steep curve and, sure, there are some regrets that I already have but there are a number of first children who turn out wonderfully so I try to focus on that instead.
That is, after all, why I'm here! Plus, she has an advantage: I, myself, was a "gifted" child; my mother never knew what to do with me, and I feel I missed out on quite a lot as a result. I'm trying really, really hard not to make similar mistakes with my own child. Perhaps I'm being TOO careful sometimes, but again, that's why I'm here trying to work things out.
Originally Posted by doctorbighands
To newmom21c: I agree with the idea of prevention. My daughter, at 6 months, was aware of and afraid of shadows - ours and her own. We took proactive steps to ensure that she avoided having to see them or, at other times, trying to express that they weren't scary. Since then, she's come to accept shadows as normal, and doesn't seem to be frightened any longer.
As for the time-out situation: It was simply a last-ditch effort by totally lost first-time parents to deal with an ostensibly volatile situation. We have discovered ourselves that it's clearly not the best method of dealing with these issues, and we've stopped attempting it.
"don't put age expectations on her" - This one's going to be a really tough one, but not for the reason one might expect. I'm sure I don't have to tell all of you, but it's already been hard feeling obligated to explain to others why we're doing things differently with her than they did with their children. People around you, especially relatives, have that expectation that "their way is the right way," and since we seem to be deviating from their ideas of "normal," it's caused heartache already. It's going to take serious adjustment by myself and my wife. We're not the most "mainstream" folks to begin with, though, so we'll pull through.
Unfortunately, outside comments and suggestions are just part of the parenthood that can't be prevented. We're also not very mainstream (we do attachment parenting and tend to live more environmentally consciously than most). We've gotten some horrible and dangerous advice from well meaning family members (some who are actually in the medical profession!). We just smile and nod and go on with our lives. If it's good advice I'll listen, if it's bad DH gets to hear me complain a bit but then I drop and try and appreciate that the person cared about us enough to be concerned at least.
About the different between tantrums/communication/spoiling. I try and think about this from a perspective of people I know. I don't have a single friend who came from an environment where their parents were always loving and attentive that turned out spoiled or selfish. I DO have friends who came from an environment where parents used material objects to replace parental attention and they DID turn out spoiled. I have also soon parents who deliberately prevented their child from growing up due to their own personal needs for attention (for instance, holding back a child who clearly is looking for independence) with bad consequences.
However, all my friends who came from loving backgrounds and their parents showered them with attention grew up to be wonderful, intelligent, and thoughtful adults. I think when you see spoiled children who overuse tantrums to get what they want they are much, much older and also there's more going on there than just parents who were looking to communicate with the child (e.g. that girl on Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory).
doctorbighands, you've gotten a lot of advice already, and it's all stuff I would recommend. I have a couple more suggestions. If she is deliberately throwing a tantrum then she is old enough to learn the word 'no'. The second suggestion, buy yourself some soundblocking ear muffs like Bose sells. When I was a young mother our first learned how to throw ear splitting, pound the floor tantrums. I couldn't stand it! The quicker I gave in to stop it, the more he did it. I realized quickly how bad of an idea that was, so one day I grabbed my husbands ear protection muffs that came with the chain saw. When our son saw his tantrums no longer bothered me, he quit, and he quit almost immediately. So if your child is not rewarded by throwing a tantrum, she'll probably quit.
Mr W will throw tantrums. Sometimes he is hungry or tired and when he gets to eat or sleep, he is fine. Sometimes he does not get his way and that is when we explain things to him then ignore him - he stops after a while.
We also had a babysitter who came to our house and she was too doting on him, and he was using crying/tantrums to get his way, so we moved him to a school, for this reason among others. ( We saw a big change in his behavior when she was gone for a week and he had to share attention with other kids. )
Here's my two cents, having an almost 9-month-old myself (who happens to be baby #6). We have never had success with time outs, with our older kids. That doesn't stop me from trying, LOL, but I wouldn't start until at least around 18 months (seriously, the few times they've seemed effective wasn't until the kids were older than 3!). Even my 22 month old, I've only given him a few. Distraction, if possible, is the way to go, following a firm "no."
But honestly with a baby that age, no matter how gifted, I'd give her the benefit of the doubt on whether she is trying to manipulate you. I'd focus on what has been posted above - the frustration, the attempt to send a message using the only way your baby knows how. What is she trying to tell you? What is it that she wants? Just to touch everything she can, as babies of that age seem to want to do? Is she demanding a lot of attention? Could she be bored? (I think it's easier, now that we have a lot of kids, to keep the baby entertained - it's not all on me). Keep interesting things around. Introduce her to the safe kitchen cabinets. Allow her to rummage through the plastic containers, the wooden spoons and the pots and pans. And remember that there's nothing more interesting than her parents.
The frustration can be exacerbated by the usual sleep or hunger issues. Is she getting enough sleep (two naps and an early bedtime)? Sleep interruptios (ear infections, teething, etc.)? Having trouble going back to sleep if she wakes up during the night? Lack of sleep can be a major cause of an "over"-reaction.
Is this a relatively recent development? Any chance she has an ear infection or some other pain-causing condition? For one of my kids, tantrums were the only sign of an ear infection, no fever, no nothing (I recall the ped saying "gross!" when she looked into dd's ears. Years later, the same dd has twice gotten strep with the only symptom being a tummyache)
Also consider that, along with her possible giftedness, perhaps she's a sensitive kid. My first dd drove me crazy when she was a baby... seriously high maintenance. I don't know if there's anything about overexcitabilities in babies on Hoagies, but it's worth a look. Some babies really are far more sensitive than others - easily upset, etc. I have kids who were very sensitive, very easy and everything in between. A couple have had Sensory Processing issues. And they're all strong-willed
My preferred way of dealing with true manipulative tantrums is by ignoring them whenever possible. (It's hard to know what advice to give without seeing the tantrum though!) Usually I'm so busy that they've all had to deal with waiting for me anyway, not that it has instilled as much patience as I'd like. But a little crying didn't seem to hurt any of them.
I have a different perspective than most as I have been a foster parent for a long time and have had multitudes of children in my home.
The most important aspect of all of this is knowing your child. They are all different and there ARE children as young as 9 months that use tantrums simply as a source of manipulation. My DYS is one. There was no mistaking the gleam in his eye as he threw a gooleywhopper! For him, the only thing that worked was to pick him up, take him to his room and put him in his crib. I would walk out of the room, wait for him to stop (or at least get to the hiccup stage)then go back in and retrieve him. After about a week of this he would stop the moment I headed for his bedroom door. But let me stress again, you must know the child, make sure there are no extenuating circumstances such as a wet diaper, hunger or fatigue and a conviction that you are being manipulated. It's a hard thing to determine for a first time parent. Try to pay attention to what happened just moments prior to the tantrum. What set it off? A lot of parenting is just following your gut...... Best of Luck!
Shari Mom to DS 10, DS 11, DS 13 Ability doesn't make us, Choices do!
We were very lucky and never had many tantrums around here, so I don't know if my ideas will be helpful at all, but thought I'd toss them into the mix, anyway (as well as welcome you to the group, doctorbighands--welcome!).
I wonder about sensitivities: none of my boys could stand tags in clothes, seams in socks, or synthetic fibres when they were babes and toddlers--something to try?
Also, at nine months, I'm thinking teeth, maybe? Could be that she just plain hurts.
One thing that worked really well for all of my kids was giving them choices all the time, even well before they could talk: do you want the blue shirt or the orange one? shall we put the left sock on first or the right one? would you like to use this spoon or that one? and so on. There are no wrong answers to these kinds of questions! (Even if it's "I choose to eat with both of the spoons at the same time, Mummy"!) It's nice for them to have a bit of control. For the same sort of reasons, I used to have them help me with things (bringing me a book or combing my hair or something like that).
We also "taught" them a lot when they were small (not with any intention of hothousing, you understand, but just in the sense of sharing bits of the world with them): I'd take a tree book to the forest with them, we'd stroll over to a tree, feel the bark, crush some needles between our fingers and smell them, show them the picture of that species in the book, tell them the name of the tree, then go find another. Same for birds, bugs, seashore creatures, and so on. (Outdoors time was--and is--really big for us: when people were getting a bit cranky generally, I tried to get us out into nature and cheered up.)
Or I'd take them to an office building with a lot of stairs (at a quiet time of the day), and we'd climb and count stairs, over and over (good for my fitness level anyway!). I do remember that one of my boys particularly insisted on the counting (we had to go back down and start over if I forgot to count out loud), so it wasn't just the steps, I don't think.
All of my kids liked watching me cook from their highchair. I'd bring ingredients over to them, tell them what I was making and what I was going to do next, let them smell spices while I named them, and basically kept up an informative monologue as though I were doing a cooking show on TV. I did this with lots of stuff--basically a running commentary on the routine tasks of the day.
I also remember bringing them scraps of different fabrics to feel and describing what they were: velvet, corduroy, silk, linen, denim--they all feel different and interesting to a baby, and some kids are really tactile learners.
Well, I'm veering way off topic now--but I guess my point, if I do in fact have one, is that sometimes frustration stems from inability to communicate, as of course you already know; and we found that with our kids, giving tons of choices, supplying lots of informational input, and talking to them as though they could understand perfectly well what we were saying seemed to avert quite a lot of that frustration. My sample size is three, however, so not necessarily much use to you.
I've totally been there. When my DS was in the 9-10 month old range, he started with the tantrums, particularly the "going stiff as a board" style (and he is STRONG) when I tried to do things like buckle him into his carseat or stroller. I would talk about him having tantrums and people would sort of roll their eyes and say that babies that young don't have tantrums, and/or "if you think he's having tantrums now, just wait till the terrible twos!".
Previous posters have given great advice... What worked for me personally was a combination of the prevention stuff (not trying to get things accomplished when he was tired/hungry/bored/etc) and huge amounts of communication. I used a lot of tactics that people recommend for two-year-olds, like giving lots of warnings before we changed activities, explaining why we were doing things, and giving choices where both options were equally acceptable to me (red shirt or blue shirt, etc).
Also, I'd like to second the previous poster who said that if she's smart enough to throw tantrums this young, she's smart enough to move on to something else as soon as she's capable. This was my experience as well - despite all those dire predictions about the 'terrible' twos, my son has been increasingly pleasant, reasonable and generally easier in direct correlation to his increasing communication skills. He's 2.75 now and I've found the "twos" to be an absolute delight... I tend to tell people he had the "terrible zeroes" instead.
Hi, doctorbighands. My older son, when he was a baby, used to throw a wobbly every night at dinner time -- hunger, lack of Mom's attention, and tiredness set him off. We found that taking him outside, even for a few minutes, calmed him down so he could make it through the evening. I agree with Minnie -- outside time is good for the soul.
Also, distraction is a great technique for derailing tantrums at ANY age. You're not giving in to manipulation, you're helping her re-focus on something else, because she's too little to do it for herself. You're teaching her a good coping skill, and when she's older, she'll be able to go for a walk or go read a book or watch something funny on TV to get herself out of a funk.
We also had good results with signing. We started teaching both kids at about 9 months and they started signing back at about 10 months. So I would recommend you just persevere with that... you may find it'll start reducing the screaming pretty soon.
One problem in particular is tantrums. Over the last couple of months, it's become clear to us that she has learned to manipulate us with screeching, flailing, and generally complaining and being obnoxious. The issue we face is that she's apparently old enough to use a tantrum to get her way, but she isn't old enough for us to explain (in words, anyway) why this behavior isn't okay. In the past, we've been quick to change her environment somehow - e.g., new toy, different interaction, food, change of position, change of location - but we're thinking that that might be a mistake on our parts. By catering to her negative behavior, we feel we're only reinforcing it.
I'm wondering what, exactly, it is that she wants when she is trying to get things 'her way.'
I do agree that those frantic environment changes to try to jiggle a child out of a tantrum are ok in the beginning, but are sort of unsatisfying.
When my DS13 was a baby, I firmly believed that everyone, child and adult, needed to cry, tremble, laugh and thrash while keeping in mind both their overall goodness and power AND their current frustrations. I was experienced enough, that while my son cried, after I checked his diaper, and mentally checked about when the last time he ate was, I'd quietly 'be' with him while he cried. I'd gently talk to him about what I thought might be going on. I might be worth a try to see if that feels satisfying to your family. I will say that lots of babies cry louder and more intensely when you pay attention to them in that way, so that people generally think that the baby doesn't like what you are doing. I tend to look at how the person feels afterwards to judge if I think I had been useful.
So if you remain calm, and pay attention during the 'show' but your rules remain intact ((Yes, she may scream, but no she may not put her finger in the electric socket)) then the only possible manipulation gain she might get from her tantrum is your attention. And if you are giving her tons of attention when she is being her wonderful regular self then I might hope that the habit of manipulation might not form. I loved Master of None's Advice for paying attention to a non-tantruming gifted child, and did lots of that sort of thing. I would print that one out and bring it up at your next family meeting.
Walking away during the tantrums is that alternative, and might be what's needed if attention is indeed what she is after.
See:
I find this so sad, but at least good to know that there are lots of behaviors that look alike on the surface, but different underneath.
Some kids actually do get 'hooked' on the negative energy that they get from acting out in some way - see All Children Flourishing below.
Since those days, I've kept my eyes open for parenting advice that seems appealing. 2 books that seem tremendously appealing, but my son was 'too old' to try them when I read them were:
Raising a Thinking Child: Help Your Young Child by Myrna Shure, Theresa Foy DiGeronimo
Secrets of the Baby Whisperer: How to Calm, Connect, and Communicate with Your Baby by Tracy Hogg (I haven't read her books that are aimed at toddlers, but her book for newborns spoke to me)
For a lighter approach, I think it's worth trying to read: The Girlfriends' Guide to Surviving the First� (Paperback) by Vicki Iovine It's written from the Mom's point of view, which makes it, I think, especially valuable to a dad, as having to work together to figure out this stressful stuff is probably more important than which techniques you eventually decide on. Just don't assume that your actual wife is going through what is described.
A book that I found really helpful when DS13 was too young to understand the 'whys' is -
Don't Shoot the Dog!: The New Art of Teaching and Training (Paperback) ~ Karen Pryor
I used it to 'break' him of him of throwing his sippy cup during dinner. It worked without any yelling or grumpiness. Certainly you be given a lot of parenting advice that is based on the ideas of Behaviorism, but the people giving the advice are usually not really smart enough to understand the principles deeply, so their advice ends up being mistaken. With this book you can see right through the differences between actual Behaviorist theory and the Pseudo-science. On a deep level, Behaviorism is all about communicating with creature who do not use words. In fact, even we adults, who use words quite well, are usually sending a ton of metamessages nonverbally at the same time, and I would suggest that it is the metamessages that are doing the work, not the words themselves.
Ex: When you were in high school, your girlfriend might have said that she loved you more than life itself (words) but her behavior might have sent an entirely different message. I'm hoping you were watching the behavior, not the words, yet?
I also love the book: The 7 Habits of Highly Effective Families by Stephen R. Covey and recommend it for when your are feeling less 'in crisis.'
My kid did, I feel, get hooked on attention, and was totally willing to act out to get that attention, so the approach I'm currently using is: All Children Flourishing - Igniting the Greatness of Our Children ~ Howard Glasser with Melissa Block
I've been playing with the ideas for about a year, and just wish I had found it much much earlier. I think that this approach, which aims at children who are 'intense,sensitive, and needy' is the first discipline book that doesn't backfire on my son. I think that this book has real potential for gifted children with overintensities. There are plenty of great books about understanding the overintensities - your own and your child's, but very few that tell you how to work with these kids to grow their inner resources so that they don't have to live their lives running away from their triggers. Of course you want to remove triggers when the child if very young, like yours, but in the long term, you want the child to grow large enough on the inside to be able to handle those tight spots that you know life will hand them.
Speaking of the environment - a beautiful calm environment is a really beautiful gift that you can give your family. Flylady.net is filled with funny, friendly advice on creating the physical space to give your family the most calm possible. It's written as though it's aimed at the Mother of the home, but with a little imagination I'm sure you can figure out what babystep is within your area of influence and take that.
I'm going to assume that you and your wife are also gifted. That isn't always true, but it very often is. So I'm going to further assume that you each have your own baggage about what growing up gifted meant to each of you. So much is the same, and yet so much is different. She might have gone to a gifted school were she was solidly in the middle of the pack and from her perspective, she is no different than most people. You might have languished in the corner. Or vice versa. Lots of gifted people don't feel smart for various reasons (LOL, often one of the siblings is identified as the smart one!) One thing for sure - it's likely that both you and your wife will have very strong ideas and feeling about how to raise your daughter. I would say that how well you work together is key.
Your daughter is lucky to have a parent who cares so much about her!
