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I need some help/strategies from the experienced moms here. DD, a young 4th grader was upset today because of math class. She has done long division for a long time. When she asked me how to do it (last summer I think) I showed her the way I was taught. Now her teacher has taught a different way that is much longer, but I'm sure there is a reason why this is the way she wants it done. From day one, DD used "her" way, came up with an answer instantly and teacher would say: "it's the right answer, but how did you get it?". DD sees this other method as long, unnecessary and refuses to do it. Also, teacher insists on leaving a remainder, DD wants to figure out answers to X number of decimals. This "tension" bothers DD as she feels that she is right, but also wants to please her teacher.

I understand why she needs to follow procedure and maybe this builds on something later. But as she has clearly mastered the topic, I understand her frustration going over something familiar time and again. SO what do I tell her, how should she handle it at school? I can't wait for the EXPLORE test, maybe that will help us advocate for her, but for now she needs to manage the situation in the classroom.

Could your DD do one worksheet the teacher's way and write a description of how the teacher's method works to prove that she understands it? If your DD can also explain how her own method works and why it gives the same result that would be even better. Maybe that could convince the teacher to allow your DD to use a different method.

A lot depends on the teacher... some teachers would perceive this as "showing off". I know, because I was a talented math student who ran afoul of some of my teachers

Oh, the bane of every gifted child's schooling career: "Show your work." I remember that! Ugh, it was awful; sometimes my brain just knew the answer and had it's own way of getting there. Being forced to use someone else's method can be downright harmful, if your method is also based on firm principals -- just different ones!

I like Cathy's idea, and I think it would work if the teacher didn't think that dd came off sounding like a know-it-all (which I, too, was exceptionally guilty of in school!). You might want to step in and ask the teacher (in a polite and non-threatening way, of course) if there was a rationale for the method or if your dd could use her way, provided it works for all the problems given and yields the same answer.

As for the remainder thing ... she might just have to suck it up and give answers with remainders. There really are some situations where remainders are useful. If it's just "bothering" your dd to answer with remainders, I'd probably advise her to do it both ways, if she really wants to. Probably what's happening is that the other kids don't know how to divide with decimals yet ... but the teacher may have a reason for wanting them to answer with remainders.

Good luck! I also ran afoul of several math teachers (and physics teachers; one who lamented my lack of work ethic and my straight-out "don't care" attitude toward physics, though I clearly had an aptitude for it) -- but then you get those great teachers who really encourage creative thinking. I hope she gets one of those next year!

Maybe I should add that I chiefly ran afoul of teachers by correcting their mistakes in class. I was just trying to be helpful... and I couldn't stand it when something was incorrect!

I remember in early elementary being told I could not add 7 and 8 by taking 3 away from the 8 and adding it (the 3) to the 7 to get 10 then taking the resulting 5 (from 8-3) and adding it to the 10 to get 15. The teacher said it was "too complicated" and "probably wouldn't work when you get to higher math." So I shut up and just kept doing it in my head. A few years ago, I saw in one of DS's math books, *my* technique being taught under the heading "redistribution."

My point is that elementary school teachers are often not very strong in math and don't feel comfortable evaluating alternative methods. I'm not saying that all teachers are, but enough are that I'd be careful confronting her.

We actually used home school curriculum for math that I sent to school in 4th and 5th (and he did during math time) until DS had self-paced up to the point he could take algebra with a real high school certified math teacher this year (in 6th). His teachers were at least vocal about the fact that DS was better than them at math and they were not comfortable teaching him at his level. So they were happy with our solution. (Math is actually his weakest subject, but his teachers were all very comfortable with humanities and were happy to give him quite differentiated assignments in class--reading Thomas Jefferson essays, for example. That was fine with them, but math freaked them out.)

And when the work got harder, he started showing his work, because he needed to, not because someone told him he should.

Remeber though, that in math it is very important to show the work. It might look extremely stupid at this level, but I would still insist she does it how the teacher asks her to do it. Maybe she would feel better if she got some validation from the teacher, that her way of thinking is good but that there is also another way she needs to master.
My DS, taking classes from Art of Problemsolving, is also mad at the fact that he has to "show his work", but those people really know why they are making them do that. Even if it is more time consuming.

My son, now 11, learned to show his work during a mini-stint of afterschooling during the 4th grade when I introduced him to Aleks online math.

They insist that one get three examples of each type of problem correct to 'earn' a 'piece of pie' on this cute pie chart. Until that time he had no interest in checking or showing his work. What he quickly discovered, was that if he showed his work, he could check his work, and if he checked his work, he could get the magic '3 correct right away' that would save him from endless drill, since the compter 'obviously' doesn't know the difference beteen a mistake in understanding and a math error.

I think it helped that he knew he was dealing with a machine that 'has to follow a program' instead of a real human teacher who might be expected or at least hopped to figure out 'why he got the wrong answer.'

I was so pleased with his change in attitude. No one had to 'talk to him' about showing his work once the situation was set up in such a way that 'there was something in it for him.'

Smiles,
Grinity

Aleks has definitely worked for us. We like the Pie. There is something about filling in that Pie that makes it a little more fun for my son and he never thought math was fun before we found Aleks. He told me a few days ago that he feels really good after doing something challenging in math that he hadn't done before. He usually tries to find answers his way before looking at the way Aleks shows how to do it and it is usually different from the way I would do it, but it works for him. If he gets to the point where he needs to show his work more to avoid incorrect answers then he will make changes, because he definitely wants to get the three problems correct. I think he sometimes goes back through the steps mentally before submitting his answers. Sometimes he asks me if it is correct. I then do the problem my way and if we get the same answer he enters it. Otherwise, he has to do it all over and figure out what he did wrong.

Thanks for all the thoughts and help. I think I should clarify a bit that the way DD gets the answers is not intuitive but the way DH and I were taught in school. She can show her work, but she does not do it the way her teacher does. So the first issue is the way she calculates is different, but acceptable in the math world. I think that her "quickness" and the fact she had already mastered this causes DD to work ahead and while the teacher is giving instruction DD may be completing the whole page. And when the work looks different, she gets asked "how did you get that answer?". DD can explain how she did it, but it's not the long way other students do it.

I don't know if DD comes off as a know it all, but I'm sure she is proud of herself for finishing the problems quickly. She is also very talkative and last year she had problems remaining quiet when she was finished ahead of others. Her teacher has not been in touch, so I think DD reads into the situation more than necessary. She is extremely sensitive and often seeks her teacher's approval. When she is questioned, she may think she is not doing it right.

I figured though that this problem creeps up with others too as my generation learned to calculate things differently (just as with cursive styles). Since I have a curious child, we don't teach her at home, but will explain things as she asks. DD has many books and websites she likes to explore and asks questions when she wants to learn more. I agree with the thought that it's good to learn different ways. We have done that before with other things, but as DD showed me the teacher's way, it seems very long way around to get to the same answer. But again, I may not know what it builds upon.

That is exactly the way I've always done addition, and I'm a mathematician now! I teach high school math! Good for you.

My heart goes out to here as my son has faced this in the past. Eventually, in 4th grade, he got permission to read quietly at his desk, which helped, but I fear that he raced through his 'work' to get to his book, so that was a possible downside. Also, although his teacher told us that she was happy for him to have something to do, she apparently didn't tell the class tattletale, who really irritated DS, then 9, by 'telling on him' on a daily basis, reportedly without the teacher ever stepping forward and supporting DS. I guess I shouldn't have even gotten started on this topic. Anyway, to my mind it is a measure of how far I progressed in my mentality that year. In October when the teacher cued us in that she was allowing him to read books in his desk at will, we were pleased and relieved because we felt that would help him be better behaved and be a better classroom citizen. By the end of the year, as it became clear that he was reading during class discussion, with one hand on the book and another in the air to answer any question that the teacher might chance to ask him, I had started to believe that we Adults had some responsibility to get him into an environment where he had a chance to acutally learn some new material, and learn how to learn as well. By the end of the year the fact that he spend so much time reading in his desk was the sign of a problem that needed to be addressed. We had shifted from a 'can we help him behave well?' to a 'can we met his learning needs?' perspective.

This is a much more difficult issue, IMHO, and I have not advice for you here. I guess I would encourage you to take the first step and bring up the issue with the teacher to see what's on the teacher's mind, so that you can share with DD your perspective, instead of leaving her to her own devices. Our kids can be perspective in such a narrow way that the miss the big obvious, and I think, need our help.

I can certianly remember the times I was in a 'no news is good news' mode, but, fortunatly or unfortunatly, this didn't usually last more than 2 months with my externalizing DS.

Smiles,
Grinity

This is how I do math in my head too - redistribution. I've been doing it since elementary school. And I did HORRIBLE in elementary school math. The crabby old nuns at my school wanted work done THEIR WAY. And I have degrees in math and csci. I'm actually thinking of getting a masters in education eventually so I can teach math (and maybe even a cert in gifted education!).

kimck and pinkpanther,
The real problem I think is elementary school teachers who hate math and who get very uncomfortable very quickly if asked to stray at all from the book. DS actually had a teacher who told me in a whisper that all she did with the math homework was check that it was done, mark it in the book adn throw it in the garbage because she hated math so much!

Pink--I'm so glad you teach math!
Kimck--would you consider teaching elem math! wouldn't it be great if the kids met someone who loved math and different perspectives on problems BEFORE they get to high school?!

This is what I'm talking about mainly, Dottie! If the 5th grader can solve for x in 3x+2=17, I think it's pretty obvious they know what's going on. After one or two examples to show they understand the "keep both sides equal" principle, it seems silly to require all the extra steps from then on out. And combining steps in higher level math if you're able just saves time and effort!

Ugh, I went nuts in grade school math!

Thanks. And yes, kimck, you should teach math!

I don't think I shared this when it happened, but right before Christmas, DD9 came home with a math question counted wrong that she knew was right. I usually don't look at her papers that much because she's such a good student, but DD insisted that I look at it. The question asked her to write 5x6 as a repeated addition problem, so DD wrote "5+5+5+5+5+5=30". The teacher counted it wrong, saying she should have written "6+6+6+6+6=30". I was really mad because DD has understood multiplication for years and knows it can be written either way. I emailed the teacher who said she was going to check on which way it needed to be written for standardized tests. This angered me even more! I insisted that it would not matter which way she did it, and that on a mc standardized test, both forms would not be choices in the same problem. I never heard back from this teacher on this. Very frustrating!

I guess she could be concerned that the student didn't understand that "5 times 6" litterally is 6, five times, but it sure sounds like the teacher doesn't understand the nature of multiplication. I hope she does, and is just assuming that you give her enough credit. Sad that teachers are in the position of justifying themselves on this level. But some have earned that position.

Frowns,
Grimity

Ugh! The second and third steps are really unnecessary, and I wouldn't make a kid write those unless they were really struggling. Even on the fourth line, why not just write x? I'm sorry you've got such a difficult teacher.

Sorry, Dottie! I didn't even notice the message, and I apologize. I've responded now. Sorry for the delay. I guess I need to pay more attention!

[/quote]I guess she could be concerned that the student didn't understand that "5 times 6" litterally is 6, five times, but it sure sounds like the teacher doesn't understand the nature of multiplication. I hope she does, and is just assuming that you give her enough credit. Sad that teachers are in the position of justifying themselves on this level. But some have earned that position.

[/quote]

I guess so, but DD does understand the meaning. Putting the multiplier in front is standard in the U.S., but different countries do it differently. There are lots of other math algorithms that are standard here but not in other countries. I've had foreign students who multiply using lattices or who subtract starting on the left. Different, but as long as it's valid, who cares?

HA! That's really funny! I don't know why we don't teach it that way here. It's so cool.

Ha! We use everyday math too.

I think kids should get bonus points for showing different ways to get to a solution to a problem. Aren't we trying to develop creative children that think outside the (elementary school math teacher's) box? Ugh - that 6x6x6x6x6 thing is so annoying. No wonder kid's hate math! I hated it until I got to algebra.