Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Aspergers?

Hello�I am new, and reaching out to those of you who obviously have experience with Aspergers, and maybe gitedness...sorry for the length of this, but i have a full description of everything I can think of about my little boy, as I hope it helps..I have simply had too many conflicting opinions. If someone could take the time to read about him, and give me their feelings, I would be so appreciative, as I have been overwhelmed (literally) with anxiety...

My son, who is 3 years, 4 months, seems so spectacular to me.
The main �red flag� for AS is the fact he can read (probably like a 5- year old, maybe a bit higher), and seems to still parallel play in nursery school. Our Pediatrician, without asking much details, suggested we read about AS when she saw him read a sign in her office, and asked us to find out about nursery school. (Her assessment, otherwise, was nil, so her opinion means nothing here). He had been there for about 5-6 months, and we were surprised he stood out as not really talking to the other kids. There were no other obvious behavior issues, but simply lack of socializing. He has a 1.5 year old brother, who is just coming to life language �wise, and he seems to engage him, but it�s hard to at how meaningful given their differences. He did do some baby talking for a while, but this is passing now, but he does it still, but can correct if asked to.He loves socializing with us, and family or most adults, and seems enamored with some kids older than himself. But I have been told that can be misleading with AS.

So, naturally, I have been obsessing about looking back, analyzing him, etc, and am lost as to when/if certain things are red flags. Here are some things I have concerns about:
Stims? At 2 (to late 2 years old), he was obsessed about playing with the steering wheel at the park, and would choose this first. He would really love it, make an occasional face while doing it, maybe a visual stim here and there ( a grimace with eyes closed, maybe partially open), but hard to say, and maybe play for 10 minutes or more, than move on, and maybe come back later. He loved steering wheels in general, noticing them on cars (including toys, especially when he was first getting into them), but never did any other repetitive spinning of objects, including at home. It seemed isolated from a repetitive spinning point of view.
With his new dinky cars, he loved to run them, one by one of the edge of the couch, and crash them onto the floor, maybe the wall. This eventually stopped, but was his favorite/main way of playing with them for some time. He has never lined things up, stacked obsessively, etc. He doesn't seem interested in dinky cars or trains much these days.

Currently, he likes to jump up and down 2-3 times, intermittently (for example, when playing, he will do some activity, maybe build a Lego thing, then stand up, jump a few times and go back to it; or maybe when bored, and in the kitchen with us, and kind of moving around doing things). He has never done this for a prolonged period, and it is not too often, but is daily, and more when he is excited or has some energy to burn.
Finally, he will occasionally, especially in afternoon, seem to want to run up and down the hall, from kitchen to front door, or in basement back and forth, maybe 5-10 times. He seems distractable when doing it, but likes to do it. I t seems he needs to just burn a little energy, but I am not totally sure. From my reading, I am having a hard time understanding when something is a �stim� or not. He has never flapped hands, twirled, used his hands in a funny way, verbally stimmed, etc. Just the above behaviors. He does like to "skip" sometimes when he runs.

His development seemed normal to us, but being first time parents, there has been little reference until the little brother came along, and he himself is just accelerating, trying to do everything his big bro does. Always had good eye contact, smiled early, babbled early,, responded to us, loved (and still loves) hugs and cuddling. He spoke words by one, progressed well, and now speaks in sentences which seem normal for his age. Sometimes a little disjointed in his wording, but he corrects himself quickly. He could count early, to 20 in his mid-2s, but we did a lot of counting especially going up stairs (we have a lot of them). He knew his ABCs and numbers early, but, again, saw a lot of them. He picked up reading somewhere at about 2.5, but I don�t know if that is precocious, or was skewed by my persistent pointing out of every word, with sounding, I read to him, many books a day, from about 5 months and on. (I was determined to make him a good reader!) He did seem to memorizes the names of a lot (maybe 25) of his dinky cars right away (like Honda civic, Acura, BMW, etc), I think maybe by sound at first, but he was able to eventually read the names on the bottom. He loves cars, but never obsesses about them. He has tons of books, loves reading together, but will chose toys over them , likes if we read to him more than reading himself, and seems to follow the pictures/gist of the story well. But if you ask him, and push him, he can read those words and sentences. The only odd language thing we notice is he will sometimes repeat a question a few times in a row (2-3), even if answered, although not on any repetitive topics, and doesn'talways repeat questions. He does ask questions a lot, and often will do that instead of referring to an observation directly (for example, ask �What does he have on his head?� instead of just saying what is on the persons head). So, is this repetitive questioning? There has been no echolalia, or strange manner of speaking that I can tell. He still goes into a baby babble talk,often if embarassed too, which he corrects if we tell him (he has a 1,5 year old around)He sings some songs, and at one point seemed to pick up nursery rhymes rather quickly, but we didn�t hear about them for long. He knew the planets, in order, quickly, mainly because we started reading a book about them, and he was pretty interested in them for a while, but only really knew their names, order and a brief detail I taught him about each (I.e. Venus is brightest, etc), but he hasn�t talked about them since we stopped talking about them . (I mention this only because I keep seeing that damn astronomy thing come up as an obsession in so many references!)
He walked at 11 months, runs well, climbs and jumps well, can throw a ball, catch ok (not great);still struggles with a tricycle, but we haven�t pushed him much on it since age 3 (and its winter now). . He can do pretty big puzzles now. He does not like drawing too much, and resists much attempts at learning to draw/write (a poor circle now, at best). Painting is a bit OK for him, not too long though.Potty training still a struggle, but are just pushing him over last few months, as he never seemed interested. No tantrums (the odd, typical one for certain situations, wants, etc., and nothing odd or in public), routine obsessions (although what kid doesn�t have routines every day?). He�s fine in crowds, groups, noisy places. Plays alone happily, and seems to have some imaginary play. Has sometimes struggled to stay still in group sing- alongs, but sometimes can. Briefly didn�t like the vacuum, or my drill (at 2-2.5), but no overly weird reaction, and tolerates now. He is scared of dogs (not sure why, although my dad had a big dog which overwhelmed him when he was just 2), but no other big fears. And th ereaction is not over the top- just avoidance.

So, sorry for the length, but I have been in a panic. It all seems to boil down to poor socializing, advanced reading, some repetitive behaviors, of which I have no idea how significant they are, and poor drawing (both ability and desire). ANY opinion you can give would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers

Ksy

I understand your anxiety and let me start by saying what a wonderful parent you are for doing your research, but from everything you described I don't personally see Autism of any sort but more a gifted child. I have never heard of a doctor zoning in on a child reading and declaring Aspergers. I would definitely seek a second opinion. Also look at the following link:

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/special_needs.htm

Big hugs to you ... but really the only thing that stands out in your post is the parallel play and that too can be part of gifted and social issues.

I am sure you will get more advice on this board ... there is a lot of parents with 2E kids (Twice Exceptional) who have had to go through similar things.

HI,

I apologize for my short answer, but it has been a long day over here. On first glance, nothing jumps out as unusual to me, but then again, I have an early reading girl who loves astronomy, has some repetitive behaviors at times, freakishly good memory, etc. so it seems normal to me LOL Many children on here started reading very, very early and read at a very advanced level at three. Does he ever play with other children? I suppose that might make me stop and wonder, but perhaps he just isn't finding kids that he clicks with at his preschool. Sorry I don't have more to offer.

I agree with the above two responses...nothing jumps out. I am not an expert, except that I have a son with autism. He was diagnosed with autism 5 years before he was labelled gifted. There is no question my son was on the spectrum while your son's traits don't seem to take over his whole life. But, of course, if I were you, I wouldn't rest until he had an evaluation by a developmental pediatrician or at least an occupational therapist with experience with kids with ASDs.

The "early reading" your pediatrician is talking about is hyperlexia which is reading without comprehension and is one single characteristic that some kids with ASDs can have. My ASD son did NOT have it, yet he is now reading way way above grade level. Nan

On first read of your post I agree that nothing jumps out as "autism spectrum" to me. The early reading is not a red flag at all IMO (see my comments below). I would keep close watch on the social skills, though..Now that i'm reading your post for a second time i noticed it mentioned when i'd missed it the first time. And social is really the most important thing to look at..I say that because the social deficit is considered by most to be the dominant feature of spectrum disorders. Besides lack of interactive play, can you give more deails about his social skills. Can he wait his turn, show empathy, etc? is he like his peers for the most part? have good eye contact? Does he "herd" with them in preschool - like when they go do something he follows along, or is he very self-directed? If he is pretty much like his peers except he doesn't want to play with them, i'd think he is just a bit delayed there (no biggie). Or does he prefer adults? this might be because he could be very very gifted?

Also it is definitely too early to say "aspergers" which unlike the other spectrum disorders is usually not diagnosed until age 5. I have a son who is 7 and was diagnosed with PDD-NOS at 2.Many kids are diagnosed as PDD-NOS early on and look very similar but a few years later its clear who is AS, PDD-NOS, autism, etc... we are still struggling at this point if it is the correct diagnosis.

So i have pretty much read and re-read all the aspergers, autism, PDD-nos diagnosis criteria like a million times. Things that would signal aspergers would be pre-occupation with objects, extremely limited interests, resistance to changes in routine or things around them, atypical language development (though language may be very sophisticated), atypical social interest and development of social skills. What makes it different from autism and PDD-NOS is that the verbal development is usually very much ahead of everything else. I don't think "early reading" is mentioned in ANY of the diagnostic criteria for ASDs though it does seem to occur with a small percentage of ASD kids. Also the kids i know with ASD who were early readers were early "decoders" as opposed to truly being reading and comprehending. How is his comprehension?
irene

Also short on experience here but nothing jumps out...

However, would highly recommend seeking a developmental psychologist with experience in giftedness to bounce things off of and get assessment if needed.

The playing side-by-side is fine I think until 4-5 years old. It may be too early to tell regarding that one aspect. There would have to be other signs.

Be able to read early would be one of the signed of giftedness. However, some gifted children don't necessarily read early. But once they do, they learn at a fast pace.

There are times when an older child will appear to be/play like a baby for fun or to be like his little brother etc. That happens often, even much older kids.

Just some initial thoughts though definitely not much experience in this. But like the other posters have said, good for you for researching more about this.

Welcome ksy. I'm no expert but this sounds much more like giftedness than ASD to me. There's a book, "Misdiagnosis and dual diagnoses of gifted children and adults" which is useful for people in your position - you may want to get hold of it. In particular it has a page of "Incompatible or contradictory features" - things which, if you see them in a child of high intellectual ability "should raise serious questions as to the accuracy" of an ASD diagnosis. It's a long list but here are a few quotes:

- Relatively normal interpersonal relationships with those who share his or her interests

- Is comfortable with abstract ideas, unstructured situations, and innovative activities

- Can display empathy and sympathy on many occasions

- Lacks motor clumsiness

- Emotion is generally appropriate to topic or content

- Tolerates abrupt changes in routine, or only passively resists in the face of such changes

Maybe he's just a bit shy at nursery? Unless there's an actual problem I'd be inclined just to watch how he goes.

Hey there,
I hardly ever post but from reading your post, if your son has Asperger's, my son has Asperger's, and I don't think my son has Asperger's.
Early reading, not so good on the socialisation, poor drawing (and how!), a tiny bit obsessive (in our case it was fans or things that went round).
If you should be panicking, I should be panicking too.
My son is now 9. He is still a bit of an introvert. And still an excellent reader :-)
The idea of a 'diagnosis' which I interpreted as an ASD was raised when he first went to school as he refused to participate in class. However they didn't realise that he was very far academically advanced of where they were pitching lessons, ie reading novels and being given picture books. When that was fixed (new school and grade skip) the social and participation problems diminished.
Best of luck, my uninformed opinion is, don't panic. I hope these responses make you feel a bit better about the situation.

Hello,
I have a son diagnosed with AS. I have to say that there is nothing that sounds particularly concerning right now, but I agree that you should wait until older to really start worrying about AS. A couple of really obvious things you should look out for:

- Likes predictable schedules to the point that if something changes, even if warned before hand, you get tantrums. Bigger shifts in schedules will really show this (moving him to a new school, new afterschool program), even when the child him/herself anticipates and is excited by the idea of the change.

- Like you noted, disengaging. I agree that at this age, it's hard to tell if it is a Gifted child just doing his own thing, or not.

Another thing is that my older son is really cuddly and has lots of eye contact with me, but he doesn't really show tight affection to other people. Even my mother, who he adores, has noted this. I was told by several professionals that this is very common with AS, so it's hard, sometimes, for a parent to see the social disengagement.

Hope this helps.

This is one of the reasons I thought my son could not have Aspergers, even though he has some things in common with children with Aspergers. My son always loved to hug and be hugged by me, his dad, and his sister. He and his friends in the acting class hug a lot. If my son's acting class friends see us outside of acting class they come up and hug us. They often put their hands on shoulders, pat backs, high 5's, play fight/wrestle, that kind of thing. It is obvious they all like each other because they are very demonstrative with their affection.

My son also never had a problem making eye contact. His eyes are very expressive. I can easily tell when he is about to make some smart remark about something. He loves to tease me, but he lives to tease his older sister. I love to listen to their verbal sparring matches. It always looked to me like this could be considered a social skill because he has to know just how far he can go without hurting the other person's feelings. He is able to sense when the other person is emotionally down, like when his sister broke up with her longtime boyfriend. He knew when to back off the teasing and find something to compliment her on instead. He always knows just what to say and how to make her laugh when she is feeling down, which is why she always called to talk to him and not me.