Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment need help interpreting widely ranging scores

Ah - I missed your post while I was typing.

1) You husband could be right, but I know how hard it is as a mom to 'sit back'

2) Great that your teacher 'sees' your daughter

3) The perfectionism could be inborn, or it could be because of the 'bottleneck' (difference that isn't severe enough to be an LD, but feels like one on the inside) OR it could be because she is surrounded by kids and school work expectaions that are scaring the xxx out of her, on some level. I would consider hiring a tutor to work with her on her strenghts for the rest of the year, to try and relieve the anxiety of being surrounded by kids and expectations that are totally wrong on many levels.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

My DS8 has VERY similar scores to your DD's, though his high scores are in PRI, not VCI. He also got a 109 in Processing Speed and had a similar score for Working Memory.

For some kids, this lower PSI score indicates perfectionism. I don't believe that is the case in our DS's situation, though it sounds like perfectionism might be dragging down your DD's speed score. As with your DD, rote memorization isn't his strength either, though he can do it. For the most part, he's just an average kid when it comes to how fast he processes information.

These scores our kids have is actually not an uncommon mix of scores, based on what I've seen on this site. (Well, I mean obviously having scores THAT high is uncommon, but once you have a score that high, it's not uncommon to have a PSI or a WMI that is NOT that high...) A child can be gifted and not be fast. They're two separate things, which is why they're tested separately.

FWIW, DS8 shows no signs of a learning disability. DS8's WJ-III scores were consistent with his WISC scores, so we didn't worry too much about it. He just takes time to process things. It does function as a bottleneck for his learning, as Grinity has so aptly named it. But the "normal" part of him is how (not) fast he is. The unusual/rare part of him is how smart he is. He's basically a 13 or 14yo who operates at the speed of an 8yo. I would suggest not to make the speed thing out to be a problem in the absence of other evidence that it is a problem. DS's speed improves with time, just as it would for any other kid as he gets older. If it didn't, then I think that would also indicate a more serious issue beyond just being normal about speed.

The upshot of this score combination for us was that we felt grade-skipping wasn't a good choice for him. He would probably have a hard time keeping up with older kids, and in that specific situation his speed issues would have functioned as an LD. Homeschooling has been a better fit in his case, since it has allowed him to go as deep as he wants without having to rush, and it has allowed us to work on his processing speed as needed. (This is not a recommendation for you. I don't want to seem to be pushing our solution onto you or anyone else. It's just to make the point that speed matters when deciding how to approach the child's giftedness in the schools.)

If you suspect an LD for other reasons--the spelling and writing, for example--then I think that is something to pursue. Above-level achievement testing is very useful for this. If you find that your DD's achievement is significantly lower than her WISC scores, then you probably want to pursue the idea of an LD further.

I'd be happy to talk further if you want to. My DS isn't much older than your DD, but he was tested 3 years ago, so I've been thinking about it for a good bit longer.

Interesting that having those 3 19s in verbal subtests result in a 155, I would have expected a higher score (goes to show how much I don't know).

I also think you should apply to the YSP. You could wait and do achievement testing, or go the portfolio route along with her WISC scores.

One thing I can talk to is that the "out of the box" thinking MIGHT have affected her Matrix REasoning score. I know that my most creative/divergent Dd came out with answers that made sense (in some logical way) but were not the right ones.

155 is the ceiling for the VCI. There is no higher.

Fascinating insights, everyone. I am so glad I discovered this community! Let me try to address everyone's comments...

Grinity, I think your insight about the "bottleneck" is useful, and I am not sure I can say for certain what her perfectionism stems from. I tend to think it is innate; she is an extremely hard worker (not just in school but in life; she likes to be busy and purposeful). She is able to distinguish between effort and achievement and prizes effort more highly (her teacher gives grades on both and DD doesn't ever lament the achievement grade but gets upset if she doesn't receive the highest possible effort grade, since in her mind she has put 100% into it). No doubt we as parents have shaped and reinforced these values, but I have actively tried to discourage the perfectionism for years to no avail, so I do think it is inborn. She has never liked to make mistakes of any kind, no matter how much we frame them as "learning opportunities". She tends to be quite confident overall, so I don't think any of her work is frightening to her. She seems to always expect the best in terms of how she performs on her work (and her grades usually support it).

Kriston, I appreicate your take on the slower processing speed, particularly the analogy of a 13-14 yo working at the speed of an 8 yo. This is something I should keep in mind as I watch her work. I tend to agree that the psychologist might have jumped the gun on saying she should get an IEP that gives her extra time on tests and homework. She does seem to get rattled by speed and I do think that there is some extra step her brain goes through in translating the thoughts onto paper. Sometimes it goes correctly and sometimes it gets mixed up. I think concentration may be the differentiator and when she lets her guard down on "easy" things, the mistakes show. It makes me wonder if she is having to work much harder than anyone realizes to accomplish what she has, as her level of effort is notable in every aspect of her life. If there is something I can do to ease any extra effort and compensating she is doing, I want to catch it before she (presumably) moves into an accelerated GT program that ought to challenge her much more than she has been to date.

And Gratified3, given how strong her teacher recommendation will be, she *ought* to get into our GT program, but no one is a shoe-in. Even out of the kids who group-test above 130, only 2/3 get accepted. It is a fully immersive program in a highly regarded school district filled with talented kids and ambitious parents. The psychologist we used specilizes in advising parents on how to get kids into this program and she felt that it was not a lock.

Before the WISC testing, I felt strongly that the previous testing just didn't accurately reflect my child's abilities. I had done a few sample NNAT items with her and she seemed to get the ideas fine. She told me afterward that she erased a lot of her answers. I wonder if she talked herself out of correct answers or neither was right! It is fascinating to me that she only scored a 115 on the CogAT verbal given the VCI 155. The psychologist didn't seem to find this strange at all, saying they measure "totally different things". Clearly I think the 155 is much closer to her true ability, although we were surprised at how high it was. I think we allowed the school testing to downgrade our own expectations for and perhaps even impressions of her abilities, which is really scary. I see now that the group tests played to her weaknesses and the WISC played to her strengths. Is it really true that the highest score is the most accurate rather than the truth lying somewhere in between?

The DYS program sounds really great, and may well be worth the extra testing. I assume that having a bit of an uneven profile like my daughter doesn't hamper one's ability to be accepted into it, right?

Finally, a comment on our teacher, who I agree has really sharp observations. Unlike last year's teacher, who just loved my daughter so much that I felt like she automatically assumed everything she did was great (including when it wasn't), this teacher was slow to warm to my daughter. I was actually frustrated at our Oct conference because I didn't feel like she had clued into my daughter's strengths yet. It took me approaching her after the school testing in Jan to learn how much she really knew about my daughter and just hadn't said, and now I feel that she is a great advocate for her. I was hesitant to reach out but it was the best decision I have made, for what it's worth to anyone who might also feel unsure about whether to approach a teacher.

Nope. My son is a DYS kid.

Welcome June !

We have one dd who has the slower processing speed and accommodations for it in her ALP (accelerated learning plan). I think that the only reason she got it was b/c she was also diagnosed with sensory integration disorder and her scores on the WISC were all in the 90s except for processing speed which was at the 42nd percentile, so lower than your dd's. Even being slower than your dd, my dd hasn't needed the extra time very often and she doesn't get it for tests like the SAT that she took this year through talent search. The real benefit for her has been anxiety reduction knowing that she isn't going to get pressed to work fast.

She, too, works everything out in her head and then puts it down on paper. She had a hard time for some time with noises interrupting her thought processes and having to start back over again in her mind which made the whole process even slower. The interesting thing that I was told from the psych who originally tested her was that she felt that introverts were more likely to have that pattern of methodically working things out in their heads before putting it out there (writing it down, speaking up, etc.). I, on the other hand, lean toward extraversion and tend to work everything out aloud. I talk my way through it and don't figure out where I am going until I get there.

Ah June,
I think I didn't express myself very clearly here.

Imagine that you were a 9th grader. On morning you go to school and instead of your usual classes, and usual friends, there are kids that look just like you, but act and talk like 4th graders. You teacher talks extra slow, and extra simply, and uses books that would be quite appropriate for 4th graders. Then the teacher announces that the class has won an award for being the most academically advanced in the district.

I'd be frightened!

Even if it had always been like this at school, I believe that some very young children (including my son) would be bright enough to be frightened by this sort of scenario.

I sounds like your daughter has internalized the idea that 'hard work' is more important than a grade - which I think it great, but there is a big difference between intellectually valuing 'working hard' and actually getting a chance to work hard on a daily basis. I would be upset if I was in a classroom where everything was 'too easy' and I did my best to do everything right, and I got marked 'off' on effort - here I am doing this work that isn't remotely interesting or challenging, what more could the teacher possibly want?

Some kids are great at 'self-enriching' and adding challenge to the most boring assignment. Some teachers are great about seeing what a child is capable of doing, and gently pushing them to do their best. But expecting that on a regular basis is unrealistic.

Just some thoughts,
Grinity

The use of regression equations to predict the expected achievement levels of five- and six-year-old children on the Wide Range Achievement Test are discussed. Problems are found in identifying underachievement for children in the lower primary grades. Implications for the early identification of specific learning disabilities are described. (Author)

To get a high score, you have to be able to get a high score on these tests.

To get a mediocre score, well, there could be a lot of reasons for lower scores - tiredness, unable to focus, actually not know the answer, LD, etc.

But a high score... well, you actually have to get the answers right.

That's my best guess... heh