Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment need help interpreting widely ranging scores

I am hoping someone can help me interpret my second grader's scores on various tests, as she has some huge strengths and unusual weaknesses and I am trying to figure out the next steps. I apologize in advance for the lenghty post.

She took the Naglieri and CogAT at school and scored lower than we expected, particularly on the NNAT:
CogAT Verbal 115
CogAT Quantitative 127
CogAT Nonverbal 115
CogAT Composite 121
Naglieri 93

We took her for private WISC-IV testing at a teacher's advice and got these scores:

VC 155
Similarities 19
Vocabulary 19
Comprehension 19

PR 121
Block Design 11
Picture Concepts 16
Matrix Reasoning 13

WM 123
Digit Span 13
Letter-Num Seq 15

PS 109
Coding 11
Symbol Search 12

Full Scale IQ 136

The psychologist testing said she has never tested a child who scored as highly on the verbal sections and indicated she could have gone even further on those. However, she also said that she has some form of a learning disability where she should qualify for extra time and take-home testing given her low scores on everything timed. Additionally, she indicated that anything truly nonverbal was a big struggle, but as soon as a verbal element was introduced (such as with picture concepts) she did very well. The psychologist was quite rushed and did not explain anything further except to recommend $1000 worth of additional testing (achievement and Stanford Binet).

I had told the psychologist in advance of two quirks I have long noticed with my daughter. One is that despite being an avid reader and careful worker, she frequently misspells words by transposing letters (such as "fram" instead of "farm" or "Calra" instead of "Clara" - it's usually a vowel and consonant, often an a). She also is slow with basic addition and subtraction facts even though she breezes through mathematical concepts. Her grades are very good but then again her classwork isn't all that hard yet; the psychologist thinks she must be able to compensate even beyond what we are aware of as she is highly motivated to succeed. My daughter described to the psychologist the feeling of knowing an answer in her head but struggling to get it onto the paper. The psychologist felt that even with her 155 VC she may not be accepted into our highly competitive GT program due to the variance of scores (although she has the strong backing of her teacher to get in).

I am most concerned about what might be causing her to struggle and whether these kids of glitches ring a bell with anyone here. Also I would like to know if anyone has recommendations for the best next step for us; I am not sure the kind of testing being recommended is going to get us much closer to the root of the issue.

Finally, I just learned about the concept of extended norms from this BB. I get the sense that our psychologist did not test these, since she was very rushed (late and overscheduled) and told me that she could have gone higher. Is this something I should be looking into for the VC portion? Would we have to redo the whole test to do so?

Thank you for any help!

Your post made me think of an article I'd read about stealth dyslexia.
http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10435.aspx

Those are fantastic scores, June! I wonder sometimes about the idea that a lower processing speed necessarily implies an LD. After all, your DD's processing speed was still above average. Of course, when the other areas are so much more advanced, it may FEEL like a LD to her.

As for extended norms, these are not something extra that the psychologist has to test. It's just a separate table for calculating scores that gives credit when a child has answered more questions correctly than are required for the top scaled score.

Although it would be interesting to check on, I'm not sure that using extended norms would really matter in your DD's case. Her VCI is already so high that it would qualify her for whatever program she might be interested in. Her FSIQ is also quite high. With extended norms it might be even higher.

What other tests was the psychologist suggesting?

I am not anywhere near a testing expert, but I just wanted to say that I'm not surprised that your DD didn't do as well on the Naglieri Nonverbal Abilities Test. This test, as I understand it, really is unable to adress kiddos with very high verbal abilities. In fact, I have read in various places, that it isn't a particularly great test for looking for giftedness in general. Where is does succeed is in identifying kids who have some language difficulty, be it with non-native english speakers or with kids whose strenghts are non-verbal. Our school district, which has a lot of non-native english speakers, has adopted this now as one of their primary tests. My daughter had already been tested with the WPPSI and the KABC and scored as HG, and when the SD decided to adopt the NNVAT they asked if they could give it to DD8 to see how her scores corresponded. The didn't correspond at all! In fact, I remember the GT coordinator saying that the test is very short, so that right there, in my book, means it has limitations(and DD8 reportedly blew right through it and the tester didn't attempt to slow her down at all).

Although I don't think my situation is similar to your daughter's but I am a 25 year old young woman with cerebral palsy who when tested on WAIS III (a Weschsler IQ test for adults, very similar to WISC)at age 20, had a VCI of 145

Similarities--19
Vocabulary--18
Information--15

(wasn't administered Comprehension as it's not a required subtest on WAIS III but believe I would've scored close to the ceiling on it as well, probably would've done better on Comprehension than on Information), yet a WMI of 109 and POI and PSI both in the 70s (borderline impaired). This huge scatter is a result of my brain damage.

I am sure your daughter doesn't have a major neurological disability, but usually VCI is the least likely to be impacted by any neurological/LD issues as opposed to the other three indexes and so your daughter might have a very mild LD, but given that even her lower scores are still very solid, I wouldn't worry too much about it. If your school has a Full Scale IQ cut-off of 130, I doubt there would be any trouble getting her into the GT program, although there may be some unevenness in her achievement across and in enjoyment of different subjects.

P.S. I am definitely not gifted but I just like to hang out on this forum

I realize that in my last post I've talked in generalities, while you certainly want to know how her cognitive profile will translate into specific learning strengths and weaknesses. I think that your daughter will excel in areas where sequential processing is required and where all the connections are clear and struggle more where she has to synthesize information herself for it to make sense. Thus I think she would enjoy learning basic scientific concepts and would be good in basic math reasoning. She may be a little weaker when she has to do an independent project or write a research paper or a long essay or a creative story because these tasks require independently figuring out how to break an assignment into small pieces and then doing each step. She might be the person who needs to outline everything in order to do a good job while others may produce organized work without outlines. Also History, which while it seems factual, requires independent synthesizing of information to make sense as otherwise it's too broad might be more difficult. Really complicated literature might also be more difficult. And in the gifted classroom with students with higher Coding (short-term memory/learning of new information), it may be that the others memorize information on the whim and on the spot, while she has to put some amount of conscious effort to memorize new information. However, if she truly knows and understands something, it's there for good. Overall, she will probably rely on abstract reasoning for all her learning.

I think in your shoes, I'd definitely go for achievement testing such as WJIII. If there is a large discrepancy between IQ and achievement, that might be a red flag. My son's scores weren't as high as your DDs, I think his VCI was mid to upper 140s, with slightly higher PRI, similar WMI and exact same PS. The psych didn't mention any possibility of LDs. He did say that DS might need some extra time on tests later but I think that was more b/c of new situation, nervousness and perfectionism. My DS doesn't learn his times tables and division facts w/out LOTS of repetition and practice whereas other kids who are MUCh less math intuitive, seem to get them quickly. Very frustrating... Other than that, he writes well, spells on grade level or above when he cares about what he's writing and otherwise has no other issues.

Thank you all for the replies. The article on stealth dyslexia is very interesting and provides me a good avenue to pursue for her. I see some hints of her issues in there, although she so far would appear to be a very mild case. She is left-handed, which we have assumed is the reason she has had to work hard at her handwriting, but that article has me rethinking that assumption. Again, maybe it is that the work hasn't become too challenging, but she excels pretty much across the board, including on spelling tests and in math. It is only when she does independent writing that the spelling errors appear, and although I think her rote math memorization is weak, it hasn't hindered her school work at all. In fact, my husband questions whether I am making a mountain out of a molehill over this. But my daughter does have a strong perfectionist streak and is easily frustrated, so I feel that it is well worth the time to find any tools to help her fully utilize her strengths.

Regarding the extended norms, would the psychologist have these if I asked at this point for them or does it need to be captured and scaled at test time? She wants to do achievement tests (I think verbal and math) and the Stanford Binet IQ test. I understand that the achievement tests are to look for a gap between ability and achievement but am not sure that is the best next step (if she doesn't make it into our GT program, we'll do them anyway for an appeal). I am really interested in what I've seen on other threads about needing to have a psychologist skilled in gifted issues do the testing. How would I go about finding the right tester? This psychologist came recommended from several people for being experienced and well known to my school district but I don't feel she builds in the discussion time and analysis we would need. Her written report was even less informative than the 7 minutes of oral explanation she gave me.

Since you all have been so thoughtful in your suggestions, I will give her teacher's point of view in case it helps round out the picture. She has a very experienced teacher who said this upon seeing the CogAT and NNAT test results (and before knowing the WISC-IV results):

"Personally, I think DD possesses unusual qualities for a typical 2nd grader. She enjoys adult humor and company. She'd rather read than play, but is not averse to play. She shows "out of the box" thinking. DD is quite talented in language arts, though her spelling can be pretty bad . (She has a tendency to transpose letters and I've discussed this with her.) Her reading comprehension is unbelievable and she has an uncanny ability to inference and predict using that superior level of comprehension."

I think it is because the psychologist commented on things that have been in the back of my head for a long time, and that she did so with such strong authority, that has me feeling that there might be something neurological going on and potentially be ways to help. The Stealth Dyslexia article confirms that there is more to look into, if even just to rule out, but I am not sure where to turn to do so.

Thank you all for the replies. The article on stealth dyslexia is very interesting and provides me a good avenue to pursue for her. I see some hints of her issues in there, although she so far would appear to be a very mild case. She is left-handed, which we have assumed is the reason she has had to work hard at her handwriting, but that article has me rethinking that assumption. Again, maybe it is that the work hasn't become too challenging, but she excels pretty much across the board, including on spelling tests and in math. It is only when she does independent writing that the spelling errors appear, and although I think her rote math memorization is weak, it hasn't hindered her school work at all. In fact, my husband questions whether I am making a mountain out of a molehill over this. But my daughter does have a strong perfectionist streak and is easily frustrated, so I feel that it is well worth the time to find any tools to help her fully utilize her strengths.

Regarding the extended norms, would the psychologist have these if I asked at this point for them or does it need to be captured and scaled at test time? She wants to do achievement tests (I think verbal and math) and the Stanford Binet IQ test. I understand that the achievement tests are to look for a gap between ability and achievement but am not sure that is the best next step (if she doesn't make it into our GT program, we'll do them anyway for an appeal). I am really interested in what I've seen on other threads about needing to have a psychologist skilled in gifted issues do the testing. How would I go about finding the right tester? This psychologist came recommended from several people for being experienced and well known to my school district but I don't feel she builds in the discussion time and analysis we would need. Her written report was even less informative than the 7 minutes of oral explanation she gave me.

Since you all have been so thoughtful in your suggestions, I will give her teacher's point of view in case it helps round out the picture. She has a very experienced teacher who said this upon seeing the CogAT and NNAT test results (and before knowing the WISC-IV results):

"Personally, I think DD possesses unusual qualities for a typical 2nd grader. She enjoys adult humor and company. She'd rather read than play, but is not averse to play. She shows "out of the box" thinking. DD is quite talented in language arts, though her spelling can be pretty bad . (She has a tendency to transpose letters and I've discussed this with her.) Her reading comprehension is unbelievable and she has an uncanny ability to inference and predict using that superior level of comprehension."

I think it is because the psychologist commented on things that have been in the back of my head for a long time, and that she did so with such strong authority, that has me feeling that there might be something neurological going on and potentially be ways to help. The Stealth Dyslexia article confirms that there is more to look into, if even just to rule out, but I am not sure where to turn to do so.

Hi June welcome - first of all I would encourage you to apply for Young Scholars Program, if you haven't already. Those Verbal scores are really, really high.

Then try and get your tester to give you a score with the extended scoring and to give you a copy of the 'raw scores.'

Is there a LD, I can tell you that you will be asking yourself this questions for a long long time! I wouldn't continue with this particular tester, but I would find one of the 'top 10 in the country' types to test, because with your DD's verbal scores, 99% of everything that anyone local is going to tell you is going to be 'suspect' at best.

Once you get into Davidson YSP, you will be able to request phone consultations with some of these 'best of the best' evaluators, and maybe get some future casting. Mostly time is going to be what tells you.

FWIF - I think that her processing speed is 'pretty good' for a kid with her Verbal scores. ((She has a lot to process!)) My son's Verbals are almost as high, and his processing speed is half a standard deviation lower, and although it is a bit of a bottleneck, it still isn't a 'Learning Disability' for the schools around here.

I'm also of the mindframe that spelling is a talent seperate from intelligence, and some people have it and some people don't. I speak from personal experience here!

If she isn't accepted into the gifted program, I want to hear about it.

My main concerns are:
1) is she happy?
2) is she learning how to deal with academic challenge and develop good work ethic for her age?

((shrugs))
Grinity