Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments Does this sound unreasonable?

We are considering yet another school for ds6 next year. It's a small private school, and they currently have just 15 students (10 full time, 5 part time). The full timers range in age from 12-17. The school is working on establishing a new 1st-3rd grade class for the 2010-2011 school year. They will hire another teacher and get the ball rolling for the class if they have at least 5 students who are interested (max of 10). The school is asking for a $400 financial commitment to hold our spot for next year. This seems reasonable to me, but dh thinks it's absurd to expect us to pay for something we're not yet committed to. I want to make sure we have the option if we need it; he thinks we should tell them we'll pay the money if/when we decide for sure that we're going to register our son at their school. The school will refund the money if the class does not work out. They are a small organization that is willing to think outside the box and provide a nontraditional learning environment. I understand that if they do not have enough interested families they will not be able to establish the class, so I'm more than willing to pay the money. Dh says that they're not a charity organization; they can wait until we know for sure what we are doing. Do you know if this is standard practice to request a financial commitment this early? I'm attaching an email (below) from the school that explains the payment terms. Thanks for taking the time to check this out. I'm at a loss, as usual!

Hello - Hope 2010 is off to a great start for you and your family. I just wanted to follow up, recapping our meeting last month. I am excited about getting a 1st/2nd/3rd grade class established for the next school year. It will be an amazing journey of experiential learning, teaching for understanding, using all of a student's intelligences, projects, and community - all of which are extensively researched educational practices, and have been implemented successfully in our school over the past 7 years. As we discussed, the class will have a minimum of 5 students, and a maximum of 10 per teacher.

The elementary school day will be from 9:00 - 2:00, with academics/projects from 9 - 11:30, lunch till noon, and enrichment classes (art, pe, drama, music, science, and /or others to be determined) till 2:00. A non-refundable deposit of $400. will be required by February 15 in order to hold a student's place. (If the class does not meet the minimum number of students, this deposit will be refunded). This deposit will be used during the student's school year for materials, supplies, and field trips, so that you will have minimal additional expenses during the year.
We will confirm with you that the class has been established by February 17.

I don't know if this is reasonable or unreasonable, but I think it shows good planning on their part, and that's a good sign. It seems to me that there are too few options for our kids in this world, and 400$ isn't a lot of money to help them 'hold the spot' - afterall, you will have to sign contracts in Feb or March and start making payments in April or May - at least around here.

Sounds like this is your first choice place, yes?
If so, I would go ahead and do it, if you want it. If you aren't actually sending your son there, then i think you aren't doing them any favors by asking them to save the spot and you have to 'take your chances.'

Why does this have to be so hard?
Grinity

I agree. I told dh that if we aren't able to commit just yet, it's not their fault. They have to be able to plan.

I don't know why it has to be so hard! I'm ready for an easy decision to come my way!

I think it's reasonable. FWIW, many private schools here require a term's fees at the same kind of time of year to reserve a place, which will be thousands of pounds, and that's well-established schools. TBAH, one of my worries would be whether their $400 is *enough* to make the information about who's signing up reliable (i.e., is it enough to deter all but those who almost-definitely intend to send their child?). If I were you I'd have a Plan B for the case that you sign up, so do at least 4 other people, so you're told it's all on and you give up your Montessori place, but then on the first day of the new term not enough people actually turn up to make paying the teacher's salary viable. The deposits will not go anywhere much to help in that scenario.

ColinsMum, that's what dh is worried about too. In fact, I feel kind of bad because we are on the fence. I know others might be too, and I agree, $400 isn't enough to seal the deal. My parents and dh have big reservations about the private school because of it's size and the fact that they haven't begun a new elementary class since the middle- and high-schoolers were that age. They've just focused on that group of kids through the past 7 years. I'm worried about what happens if the teacher quits for some reason. It's not like they'll have a back up. The thing is, if their vision comes to fruition, it will be a wonderful opportunity. I'd prefer it if ds's current Montessori school turned out to be a good fit so he doesn't have to switch schools again. Maybe he'll love it by the end of the school year. So far, he's had only a few weeks to adjust. According to ds, it's not going so well.

Actually, no this isn't our first choice. Our first choice is that he falls in love with the Montessori school where he's currently attending. I like the school a lot, and they are committed to making it work for ds. They run like a well oiled machine, and ds feels very accepted. He also says he's sufficiently challenged. Mostly, I don't want him to have to move to another school and go through yet another adjustment period.

The other school is also a good option, in my opinion, however no one else in my family seems to agree with me. I'm more of a risk taker and feel comfortable putting my faith in these people because I've come to know them and trust them. No one else has been as involved as I with this school, so they are making judgements based on how it looks on the surface: too new, too small, unstructured----what I see is innovative, lots of individual attention, and out of the box.

It's standard practice around these parts to require a deposit to hold your spot. Last year our private school required 10% of the tuition by March 1st.

A deposit shows that you are financially mature, too.

It sounds very reasonable. Even if this was an established class that had been around for a while you would still have to make the $400 deposit to guarantee a spot. The only difference is the class is a start up but the school will refund the money if it doesn't make. Really shouldn't be an issue. Just remind your husband of the entrance fee for the Montessori school. I'm sure they had a non-refundable deposit. Definitely nothing fishy about the way the school is handling it.

You say that they haven't started a new elementary class since the middle- and high-schoolers were that age. Have you talked to the parents of these kids who have been taught at this school for years now? Was the start-up of their elementary class at that time structured similarly and what have they thought about the education?

I agree that a $400 deposit seems reasonable so that they can plan. I do worry, though, that if the class doesn't fly you might have lost the opportunity at the Montessori school for the fall. Would HSing then be an option again? If this other school needs your deposit now, do they have a similar spring deadline for deciding if this new elementary class is a go so that you'd have time to make other plans? On the other hand, since your DS was able to start at the Montessori in January, is it possible that there might, indeed, be a spot for him come fall if necessary, even if you don't give them a deposit this spring?

I do think that ds would be able to start at the Montessori school even if we didn't register him early, but I could be wrong. They are pretty particular about a child being a goood fit for the school and vice versa. I'm not sure what they'd think if we pulled him and then wanted to come back.

As for the private school requiring the $400 deposit, I think it certainly reasonable and standard practice. The Montessori school only required a $75 fee. Dh didn't like that either! Ugh!

Yes, I have talked with some of the parents of the older kids, and they have been really happy with the school academically. But, we didn't discuss fees at all. After much discussion, I think what it boils down to is dh is reluctant to move ds yet again. For one, he pointed out that ds needs structure, and we're both not convinced he'd have a lot of that at the private school. Ds is a master manipulator when he wants to get out of doing work! Being such a new program, we wonder how long it will take to get good systems in place and establish that order.

Dh thinks that ds is saying he doesn't like school right now b/c he's not used to being challenged and having to work hard. Our son could use a lesson in sticking with a difficult task that takes some effort. Better to learn this lesson now than later.

When I talk to ds, his frustration with the school always winds back around to the difficulty with writing. If that's what it is, he'll get there eventually. I'm beginning to think it's more ds's poor work ethic (from never being challenged) than a poor school fit. At least, I'm really hoping and praying that's all it is! Only time will tell, but dh feels very strongly that ds needs to stay put. In a way I agree, but like I said before I'm a firm believer that sticking with poor decision, just because it's the path you chose is rarely a good idea. To quote Emerson, a foolish consistancy is the hobgoblin of little minds...

My DS has complained frequently about the handwriting too. He has gotten much better as it came more naturally. I think writing can be so hard for a GT's extra fast working brain because the writing does not keep up with their brain.

If he is having challenge/work issues you may want to try some fun unschool type challenges at home. He can get that good feeling with challenge and hopefully apply that to his school work.

If you are loving the school, I would suggest letting him give it more of a try. It sound like it could be very good for him. I would continue to check into other school to educate yourself on the options to stay ahead of the game.

You're clearly in a very difficult situation. I completely agree with you on the hobgoblin of little minds, and yet, getting your DS to accept challenge and stick at things has been a recurring theme in your thoughts so it's clear that you agree your DH has a point there. In the end, perhaps the fact that he feels strongly that your DS should stay where he is and you're on the fence answers the question...

Here's what I'd do, if it were me, fwiw. I'd give the private school their $400 deposit, and I'd be quite open with them that DS probably wasn't coming. The way I'd look at it would be that this was an insurance policy, but, unlike most insurance policies which just bolster some multinational's profits if you end up not drawing on it, this one might end up being a donation to a worthy cause, and how bad would that be? (You might be able to get the school to agree that this would count as your deposit in the future if you end up moving your DS to them in some later year, or you might not: point is, although it's a lot of money, in the grand scheme of things, it isn't, and sometimes it pays to think that way.) Then I'd carry on with the working assumption that DS was staying at the Montessori for now. I would, however, resist making a financial commitment to them until I'd seen some definite improvement in DS's happiness there, or at least convinced myself that it was definitely right for him for now. If pushed, I'd probably say "if we have to make a firm decision right now it'll be to remove him, but we'd rather work with you so that we don't have to...".

What I'm less sure about is how I'd present this to DS, and even if I knew obviously YMMV! I think, would be that I'd explain to him that my concern was that I thought part of his problem with the Montessori school was that he wasn't buckling down consistently enough and working hard. I'd tell him that learning to do that was so important that there'd be no way I'd move him again without him having learned that - so that, *if* by the end of the year his Montessori teacher said he was working hard consistently, but he'd still prefer to switch to the other school, then that'd be what we'd do, but that if he wasn't, he wouldn't get that choice. [ETA: actually, this isn't entirely consistent with what I said about - you see, I do get that it's difficult ;-)] At the same time, I'd really emphasise that nobody expected him to get to perfection in one leap, and I might help him with the negotiation on how much he needed to write.

Another point I might make is that a highly flexible, small class situation can really only work if all the people involved are committed to working hard and making it work - small classes are great, but it only takes one non-cooperative child to make it impossible. So even if you decided now he was going there, he really would still have to learn the sticktoitiveness: you wouldn't be lying to him in saying this, I think.

Good luck!

Thank you, Colinsmum. I think that's all really great advice. I think it's a terrific idea to talk to ds about proving to me that his reason for not liking the school is about more than not wanting to work hard. We are really trying to focus on the positives and not allow ds to dwell on the negative aspects of school right now. He can tend to get bogged down and obsessive at times.

We are doing homework today, and it's been one giant meltdown after another, taking hours to do 1st grade homework! And it's all about the writing! He says he "can't" do it, but he really can. It just takes effort; he really HAS to master this. I think it will go a long way with him in terms of confidence and attitude if he masters this writing issue. I think it's time for some tough love on my part. : (

Would he go for short bursts of as fast as possible, maybe? My DS (also 6, also has issues with writing) seemed to benefit from a few goes of the "ten minute concentration challenge". The rule was that I gave him a subject, and he had to start immediately and write as much about the subject as he could in 10 minutes, stop-watch timed. Didn't matter how neat it was or wasn't, provided it was legible, and didn't matter how interesting it was provided it was at least relevant to the subject - this exercise was unashamedly about quantity rather than quality. At the end of the 10 mins we counted the words (at his insistence, with mis-spelled words counting half, though I think I'd have ignored spelling if he hadn't insisted) and the challenge was to beat your personal best. He only did it a few times, but it seemed to help over a hump, by getting him unstuck, or something: he had been getting very stressed over exactly what to write. (Incidentally he didn't get beyond 20-something words in 10 minutes, even when I could see he was focused the whole time.)

Have you asked him what he does not like about the writing? My son has been an unrealistic over thinker at times. He had issues with writing because he couldn't make his letter look exactly liked typed letters. Maybe you could get some cool grippies for his pencils and tell him these will feel good on his fingers. Sometimes a little change can help. Hope this gets better soon.
Pencil sharpening has been a major issue too. Mechanical pencils have been very important stress relief. This sounds so silly but it's true.

You might also want to try different kinds of writing utensils. My ds liked fat mechanical pencils/pens, but some kids like gel pens, markers, etc.

Having said that, my ds has dysgraphia, and for him it takes more than just trying harder.

Those are some great ideas. I'll definitely give them a shot. I'd bake my son a cake if he could write 20 words in 10 minutes! It took us almost 4 hours to finish the homework yesterday. He has to write a total of about 35 words. It was such an ordeal, we ended up banning the Wii. It's his biggest incentive, so when he shows us he can sit down and do homework without all the hassle, tears, and shouting, he can play Wii again. He knows it's going to take more than one day though.

My son does have unrealistic expectations related to perfectionism. Because he's in a mixed grade level class (1st-3rd), he expects to be able to do what the 3rd graders can do, and he expects to be able to do it the first time he tries. I'm sure the perfectionism plays a part here, but mostly, I think he's being lazy. He's just not used to working hard. It is an effort to write; I know he really has to work at it, but once he does it, he writes just fine other than frequent reversals. I've asked the teacher about his reversing his letters and numbers, and she said it's normal up to 3rd grade. You can tell when he writes it, he's struggling to recall which direction is correct. When he's at home, I make him rewrite the letter if it's backwards.

He'll probably like using the pencil grips. That's a really good idea. It might help with his grasp, and then there's the cool-factor. Novelty works with him. As for mechanical pencils, he likes them, but he breaks the lead constantly from baring down too hard. And, he gets distracted and starts playing with it, pulling the lead out and putting it back in.

Today, the headmistress (owner/administrator) of the school and the guidance counselor are meeting to discuss ds's reluctance to go to school and to write. They have both observed him in the classroom, and they are coming up with a plan and calling me after. They said they are trying to determine if there are adjustment issues, perfectionism issues, writing difficulties, attention problems, or if this is just part of ds's personality. She said the counselor will provide some therapy/counseling sessions if warranted. I left ds at school today fighting back tears with his lip trembling. I cried the whole way home. : (

I'm sorry to hear that, and I really hope the school can help. DS is having some "I hate school" issues and that's bad enough, even though in his case it doesn't seem as though he "really" hates school.

I spoke with the school psychologist and teacher today, and it appears their primary concern is ds's lack of focus. Apparently, he's off task more than he's on task. The psychologist said it was pretty excessive when she observed, and the teacher said that was actually a good day. Usually it's worse. So, I guess now we have to be open to the probability that the attention issues are due to more than just lack of challenge. DS seems to be sufficiently challenged at this point, and he's still having attention problems. They're seeing it across subjects and activities, even in PE. I see it at home as well (getting dressed, eating dinner, homework). HE is even complaining about not being able to stay focused long enough to get anything done. It's finally started affecting him academically and emotionally, which has always been our determining factor for assessing for possible ADHD. Going with this line of thinking, I talked with DS about the writing again, and he was able to explain that while he sometimes has trouble forming the letter and determining the correct size and spacing, mostly he just loses track of what he's writing. Therefore, it takes him a loooooonnnnngggg time to complete one word, and this becomes overwhelming.

The school would like to do some more observation, maybe get an OT eval to look at the handwriting, and then go from there. I think I'd like to just go ahead and get a comprehensive developmental assessment with a developmental pediatrician. I want to know if there's underlying ADHD because this will affect everything. I know of a really good doctor, and it looks like it's time to bite the bullet and have the evaluation done. It could be worse, right?

On a positive note, DS said today went much better than expected. ; )

Thanks for all the advice and support!