Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Mathy VS. Wordy

Hi all,

I have not been posting much lately but doing a lot of lurking. I am in a kind of contemplative mode these days letting a lot of thoughts and ideas "percolate" while we move through the holidays and winter weather. I don't necessarily have a specific thought or question but my thoughts lately have been stirred by a lot of posts on here about all those wonderful "mathy" kids...
It seems like those who are stronger in math are more likely to stand out. I am amazed at kids who discover or figure out math ahead of their years. Addition, subtraction, multiplication and division I can see as those concepts surround us. DS is not mathy but I have yet to introduce him to a math topic and not had him able to master it almost immediately. However, if not shown the new concept first he most certainly has never acquired the skills on his own or showed any independent interest in math. For us this is good because it gives him an arena where he does not instantly know the answer and gives him the opportunity to feel the challenge of learning something new.
The other posts I am reading are in regards to applying to DYS. It seems that here too mathy kids are favored or am I misreading? DS is very strong in his verbal/reading/logic skills. He loves mind bending puzzles of all sorts and is really great at them. Reads and comprehends at a 12th grade level (he is 8) but somehow this does not seem as impressive to me as the mathy stuff. Is this just me? Just thinking...always thinking...:-) Would love to hear everyone else's thoughts.

Thanks!

My dd is more wordy than mathy, but her scores qualified for dys in both. I, too, wonder if dys will help with the reading - its still all new to us.

I do find that the school is constantly wowed by the math, but her reading scores are like your ds's at the end of high school. She is constantly told she is good at math because she is grade accelerated and so people see the work she is doing.

With the reading and language she is working independantly so its kind of a big secret. (Not that I want her to be shown off.)
I wonder a lot about how this could impact her future interests and career choices. I have a BS and an MFA so a lot of my worrying about this is my own baggage...

This is what people tend to notice about DS. A few teachers and the adjustment counselor said that after one conversation with DS they know he is different. Math just doesn't seem to excite him although I just found his old second grade report card (skipped first) and the teacher writes in the comments that DS "is eager to explore concepts he is already familiar with like division and negative numbers." Where did that kid go?

I hear what Dottie is saying though. The extremely advanced math kids are much more rare. Wonder why that is... Also wondering if DS renewed an interest in math if I would see big advancement there as well? Is this an American phenomenon? Are advanced math abilities as rare in other countries that we associate more with math excellence?

Still ruminating...thanks for thinking along with me! :-)

Ahhhhhhhhh now I see what you were saying. Thanks for clarifying!

Are you talking about the AR test (quiz) or AR STAR Reading test? My DS9 had GE score of 10.7 on the STAR Reading Test at the beginning of 4th grade, but he is only around 80% on Average % Correct on the AR quizzes.(His teacher said the goal is 85%.) He usually picks books with GL 4.0 to 5.5, but often gets only 60-70% correct.
I understand that STAR test mostly tests vocabulary. Do you think AR quizzes are good for measuring comprehension skills? It puzzles me that his WJ III Broad Reading is 142 with Passage Comprehension of 130 (GE 13.0), but he sometimes fails books with only 4.0 Grade level. Being a perfectionist, he has now developed "AR phobia"

Dottie, Thank you for posting the site.

It looks great with fun games and activities for kids and resources for parents. I just checked the sample quiz, and I think it looks pretty similar to actual AR quizzes. Those would be perfect practice for him.

Sometimes I think dd is so "mathy" because she has had to read so much non-fiction to meet her hunger for books. (Emotionally she is still so 7.) And then sometimes I think she appears so "wordy" because she has used her math to somehow decode language.

I've read accelerating in math is easier for a school to provide for younger PG because the content is not emotional/age appropriate issues. (I am not feeling eloquent tonight.) I can see that and it is certainly the route our school is taking. It is certainly hard to find reading material for PG young readers who are not emotionally ready for content intended for adults - plus why would they be interested in the same stuff teens and adults read?

I'm not convinced many "mathy" people end up teaching in elementary education. I have a really hard time wrapping my mind around the idea that many adults find elementary school math to be "hard." I suspect this rubs of on their kids and students.

I understand the stuff about the difference between the spread of scores on the math and reading tests. However, when I feel people are just stuffing \dd into the PG "math box" without addressing her reading, they are not really "seeing" her.

I'm glad that there are actually more than 2 boxes.

This has been an interesting discussion. We had always pegged our son, now 8, as a wordy fella. And he still is. He started reading 2nd Grade easy readers @ 3.25yrs. Has been a voracious reader ever since. Because of the way the schools let kids run at their own pace with reading, especially with AR, this was one area where he really stood out to all around him.

And then we opened the gates on math this past summer. Wow. He finished 4th - 6th by the end of November, and is currently using EPGY for a more in depth 6th grade curriculum. He's doing surprisingly well with the sets & logic stuff to which he'd not been previously exposed.

So in his case, he first "presented" as a verbal kid, and still is. The hidden "mathy," though, is starting to shine, now that he's been given a chance to run full-speed as in reading. (He even scored higher in math than verbal on his recent SCAT test.)

I agree with the skepticism surrounding the AR testing. He's got a great memory, which helps him to regurgitate the facts for AR quizzes, and this same memory has helped him to hit the top of the AR/STAR testing, which as someone else mentioned is really just a vocab test. His last few tests (they test a few times each year to track progress) have been right at the top (12+), but I sure wouldn't pull anything off that shelf for him to read. Certainly, he would be able to follow the text, but not truly comprehend. He got cocky at the beginning of the year and pulled a 10th grade Jules Verne off the shelf. Ha! That lasted about three days before he called "Uncle" and went back to the lower stuff. He's reading a variety between 6th & 8th and keeps his AR scores @ 90% +/-.

I think it might be related more to what you are used to rather than one being more exceptional than the other. You are used to your wordy child, and probably have grown to see him as more "normal" than he is. Until someone points out to me that it isn't normal for a 5 year old to be tallying everyone's Yahtzee scores, I forget that my son is working 2-3 years ahead. I am used to my mathy son, so what amazes me are the highly verbal, talkative bright children I meet!

Sometimes it takes others to remind any parent just how exceptional their child is!



And I agree with the poster who said that mathy kids can be just as wordy/talkative as others, but it's more likely to be in the comfort of her/his own home. My son talks non-stop among our family and friends, but often acts like he is mute in public.

Interesting thread. I think the experience we have had around here is that reading is given much less weight than math. Part of this is probably that it is more typical to have kids reading somewhat above grade level than it is to have them doing math somewhat above grade level. The greater numbers of kids who are "advanced" in reading vs. "advanced" in math creates the appearance of less rarity since many people seem unable to distinguish advanced from gifted, nevermind distinguish between levels of giftedness. "Advanced is advanced, is advanced...right?!"

I also think people find it easier to quantify a student's math ability than to quantify their reading ability. There are clearer benchmarks in mathematics.

What I find ironic, however, is that reading is often dismissed as "just decoding" even in cases where it is much more--whereas math often gets a wow from observers even in those cases when it actually *is* "just computation".