Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional I don't know where else to turn

I don't know if this is an appropriate place to post this or not, but you all have been so helpful and knowledgeable I'm hoping you can help, because I don't know where else to turn, and I'm reeling.

I visit this board because I have a HG DD8 and a MG DS6. I am MG, my DH is HG, and virtually everyone in our extended families are MG-HG. But we also have a DS11 who we are very confused by and concerned about.

DS11 was easily a LOG2 when he was a baby, toddler, and preschooler. All the way through 1st grade, lots of people we knew, including his teachers, said that he was probably gifted. He was a bit of a late talker (actually, talked in two-word sentences at 12 months, but generally didn't talk much, and when he did, left off consonants usually), but by 3 was on track. He learned to read at 5, although it didn't come naturally to him. In 2nd grade we had him evaluated because reading, while he was still slightly above grade level, was not progressing easily. We were stunned to find out that his IQ was only 107. We suspected dyslexia, but the testing results didn't indicate any learning disabilities. He remained a high-average student so we let things go for a few years, always thinking that something wasn't quite right. So, we just had him evaluated again, this time with a psych with extensive experience with gifted kids since we have such a strong family history of it and since he'd seemed so clearly gifted. Well, now we've found out that his IQ on the WISC actually dropped 19 points! We don't have his WJ results yet, but the psych said he was reasonably impressed by them, so they seem to be higher than his WISC would indicate they'd be.

Unfortunately, we don't get to meet with the psych for two more weeks to get the comprehensive results of the WISC and the WJ-III, but for the life of me I can't fathom what is happening to our little boy. I feel like I need to research what could cause such a drop in scores, what could make his abilities so very far below everyone else in the family, but I can't find any information. Could undiagnosed LDs over time cause a drop in IQ? Isn't the definition of a LD an average to high IQ with lower than expected achievement? Can it go the other way? What do we do now? Do we need to progress to a pediatric neurologist? Are there other assessments that need to be done? What on earth could cause a seemingly gifted child to drop so low?

I think you need to wait until you know his scores on the individual indices. That will give you a lot more information about what is going on.

If his achievement is good, I would tend to suspect that somehow the IQ test is not measuring the kind of intelligence he has. There may be a reason for that, and knowing the reason may be useful.

On the other hand, the whole thing could just be a fluke, and nothing has actually changed with him at all. I know two weeks is a long time to wait with these worries on your mind! ((hugs)) But try not to jump to conclusions. You just don't have enough information yet.

I don't really have any advice to offer you, but I will be watching this thread very closely, because our eldest son(10) had a similar IQ score to your eldest and my two younger boys (6 and 4) are clearly very gifted (although, we don't have any official scores yet).

Hugs to you, I can relate, I hope you get some answers.

Thank you everyone. I was out of town this past weekend at "The Happiest Place on Earth" and it helped (eventually) to get my mind off things a little bit. Still, my worry and confusion is always bubbling right at the surface. I couldn't figure out how his IQ was 3 SD below his sister's, and now I just can't figure out how his IQ dropped another 19 points. Could an undiagnosed LD over several years cause such a drop? BTW: He's always gotten As and Bs, albeit with a bit more work than usual. Funnily enough, my DS11 got his mid-term grade report on Friday (the day after I got his WISC results) he and got all As, including one A+ in reading comprehension,, except for a B+ in religion. So, I guess his life can't be completely doomed! Thank you again for the support. I'll update you next week when I get the specifics.

I don't mean to sound negative, but could it mean that he just got the ND genes? I mean, if he is able to get As & Bs with just extra work, that of a normal child/person, with a "normal" IQ (normal range is 85-105), then is it just that you might be disappointed in "normal"? Maybe it is dyslexia or some other LD, or maybe it's nothing. Granted the drop in IQ is quite large, BUT could it also be that he didn't want to be bothered with testing and "guessed" just to finish or something similar?

Just playing the devil's advocate.

Hugs MNmom!

I hate waiting. Remember that feeling like you have to 'prepare' yourself is a common giftie defense mechanism that has served all of us well at times. Remember that you are in charge of where you put your attention and you get to decide if this is one of those times in life where research is useful.

As for IQ results, it might help to think of them like a scale. Maybe I'm overweight, and I step on the scale for the first time in a few years, and I'm upset to see the numbers. I am upset, but actually weight hasn't changed. I'm the same person I was before I stepped on the scale. Or maybe the scale is broken in some way. Or maybe the cat jumped on behind me without my knowledge. Anyway I didn't get on the scale to feel badly, I got on to see if more knowledge could help me live my life better.

I'm guessing that if your son's FSIQ was 88, for real, you would have noticed by now. I'm assuming that the has some wild disparity of subtest strengths that are canceling each other out on paper, but not in daily life. I pray that your experienced psyc will help you find ways to strengthen DS11 strenghs and challenge areas. I have so often heard that Middle School is when the hidden disabilities start to become noticible - so his report card is especially good news!

Love and More Love,
Grinity

So sorry to hear this MNMom. I know how frustrating this is for you. I will keep watching this post too. I hope you get some answers soon.

JJsMom, After we got my DS's original IQ scores when he was seven, we spent years questioning whether he was just ND, which was fine, or if he had some sort of LD. Given how advanced he was as a baby, toddler, and preschooler, our gut feeling (and our original reason for testing) was that something was making it more difficult for him at school than it should have been given his previous development. In the intervening years, he continued to do well in school but was having to work really hard at it (harder than other ND kids we know), particularly with reading aloud, although his reading comprehension is great. So, we decided that we needed to look further. I definitely believe that he was motivated to do well on the WISC both times and that he did his best and was attentive, so I don't think that's an issue. I know what you mean though -- I spent a while when he was seven trying to figure out if his original score shocked us because it was contrary to what we knew about our son or because it meant that he was "just" ND. Really, though, after much thought over time, we were shocked because he was clearly at least a LOG2 prior to school. Still, this really is what I'm wrestling with. Is he ND and thus so very different than the rest of us (which is find, just different), or does he need our help with some LD that is of now undiagnosed. Clearly, we love him dearly either way and really appreciate him for the nice, sweet, hard-working boy that he is and always will be.

Dottie, thank you for pointing out that maybe there could be some wild disparity of subtest strengths that are canceling each other out on paper, but not in daily life. I didn't really think of this, and it could be true. It will be good to see the actual scores in their entirety to see if this bears out. If there is a LD, I feel like that's something we can work with.

Master of None, I think we will definitely consult a pediatric neurologist. I think we have to wait to make an appointment until the psych refers us, for insurance purposes. He has always had trouble pulling words from his head despite a large vocabulary, and isn't very althetic despite his very early physical milestones, and does have a long history of ear infections, so hopefully a consult would be helpful.

Thank you again for all your support. He really is a wonderful kid, and I just want the best for him.

Well, we met with the psych to go over all the test results. The IQ tests were basically what I reported earlier -- much lower than we would have thought they would ever be, but fairly even across the board. We did go over the specific questions he was asked and his responses to them, which were interesting in that he missed things that we know he has known for years. His WJ-III results, however, were actually pretty good. He scored 1.5-3 years above grade level in math and reading and even at college-level in story recall. His writing, which we know he struggles a bit with, was a bit below grade level.

In our conversation with the psych before and after the testing we kept coming back to our observations of his distractedness and his constantly "being in his head" (i.e., getting distracted by all his thinking) and suspect that he has ADHD-Inattentive type. This would help explain the IQ results as well as what we see on a daily basis. It's not a certain diagnosis, but is indicated strongly enough that we feel it is necessary to try a trial of meds. I know that's a controversial decision, but one that we have thought a lot about and researched and feel comfortable with at this point. Besides, it turns out that we have tried most of the non-medical interventions thus far. Obviously, I am hoping that this will make a difference and make things easier for him. We shall see.

For right now, we're just feeling a bit relieved to have a direction to explore. When we explained things to him, he seems to agree that this is an issue we need to be helping him with, and seems hopeful that this might help.

Thank you for all your support.

I hope things work out for your son and yourselves. I don't see your decision as controversial but rather as personal.

Good luck and best wishes.

I am glad you have a direction. I hope things work out for you and your son. Let us know how things go. I'm always interested in stories with ADHD kids, two of mine have been given this diagnosis.

mnmom,

If you've tried the other avenues, done your homework and met with the experts, then trying a medical intervention makes sense. For some kids, drugs are warranted. t's the parent's that don't do the research first that I have an issue with.

Very best of luck, keep us posted.

I was absolutely against medicine for the longest time but I'm at the point where I think that my son needs it to function. He is extremely bored at school but that doesn't explain all of his behavior. We have tried vitamins, diet, behavior mods...and nothing works. We actually go back to the doctor with him tomorrow for a final diagnosis.

If your son needs it then he needs it. In my case I figure we can try it and if I see bad side effects or that it's not working we can take him off of it.

Good luck! I know (for me at least) it was such a hard decision but now that we've made it I feel happy that we might have a partial solution.

I'm a little hestitant to post as I have no experience with ADHD.

A friend sent me a link a while ago that another country was banding food coloring becuase they linked it to ADHD and other problems. I'm sorry my info. is so incomplete. It might be worth looking into.

I'm not a big fan of ADHD meds and that doesn't mean it's wrong either. I think the parents in this type of a forum are likely to be well informed, seeking solutions, and willing to try alternatives first. In the end if you've made a thoughtful decision for your child then what more could we ask of you as a parent. We need more parents like you that put thought into the welfare of their children. And if it doesn't work, then the research can continue.

I'm so glad you gave us an update. I am so curious about how it works out for you guys. Please keep us updated. Thanks for posting.

mnmom23 - So glad you got some answers and some possible solutions. It is a difficult decision, but as a parent you clearly want what is best and have done your research. Nobody loves medication, but sometimes it is needed and can be quite helpful for children with ADHD. If it is not helpful you will know fairly quickly. You child is lucky to have parents like you that are willing to do whatever it takes to help them to be their best and be happy. I have worked all to often with children who are falling apart and could benefit from the medication and parents don't agree because they don't like meds and worry about possible side effects (when the side effects of not taking it clearly are outweighing the side effects of taking it). Anyhow, It really shouldn't be a controversial issue at all. You know your child best and have already tried other routes. Hope things work out for you. Keep us posted!

Sorry to hijack this thread but Shellymos what side effects have you seen? I'm almost positive DS will be put on medicine after our doctor visit this afternoon (he's going to evaluate DS and go over the worksheets that both the teachers and parents have filled out) and I'm not sure what to look for. Once he starts the medicine should the effects of it been seen pretty quickly?

I've done research and tried everything else that I can think of and I know this is the right thing to do but I'm still pretty scared.

Hi Jamie,
Let me preface this by saying that I am not a doctor so don't want to give you too much info as I am sure your doctor will...I just have a background working as a mental health therapist with children along with a psychiatrist and other doctors. The majority of kids I have worked with don't have side effects at all. Side effects depend on the med and some ADHD meds are stimulants and some are not. What I have most often seen is some loss of appetite, on some of the non-stimulants I have seen some initial drowsines that usually goes away fairly quickly. There obviously can be others that your doctor can mention but those are clearly the most common when a child has side effects at all. There are also two different classes of stimulants so those work differently as well. So doctors will usually try what has been most effective with the least amount of side effects and go from there...often at a low dose and increase as needed. If it is a stimulant medication then results will be seen quickly, if it is a nonstimulant medication then it can take a few weeks.

I am sure it can be pretty scary, but if you trust your doctor and they start at a good dose then that should alleviate some of your anxiety. And your doctor should be providing you with information about side effects. The doctors we worked with took all of that very seriously and read up on all sorts of research on medications to do what is best. I have been working with these kids for years and side effects are seriously minimal when prescribed correctly despite what you will read in some anti-med slanted articles. And like I said, for some kids you have to consider the side effects of not taking meds. I have seen some major self-esteem damage, continued behavioral problems, failing, not holding down jobs, etc. and and all sorts of problems that are caused from children that never did get appropriate treatment. To me that is much worse. Of course ADHD medication really only helps about 80% of kids from what I have read, but you still have a good chance it will help and can change it if it doesn't. Some kids only respond to certain meds, so while one may work well another may not. I did mention I am not a doctor, right? So take that for what it's worth...2 cents maybe? : )

This is somewhat unrelated but my son and daughter both have asthma and need to take meds for it. I have always hesitated to give them the inhaled steroid because it affects behavior and makes them irritable...but if they really need it then I give it to them for a while because they need it to breathe and hopefully not get worse. Sometimes it frustrates me when it seems that some don't understand that ADHD is real (like asthma) and that as a parent you have to make the right choice even though it isn't always easy. I imagine I would be considered neglectful if I didn't give my son the inhaler and he really needed it.

Thanks so much! I did some reading online and could tell which sites were the anti-med sites. I took those with a grain of salt. It's good to hear that the side effects from it don't seem to be common. If you look online it seems to suggest that almost all kids have it!

Yes, that is true about the asthma (and the medicine makes me extremely jittery). And I know my son well and I know that he needs something to function "normally".

Thanks again! We leave in an hour for the appointment so I should know more tonight.