Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about Davidson Academy Online - for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S. & Canada.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute

  • Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update Newsletter >

    Free Gifted Resources & Guides >

    Who's Online Now
    0 members (), 249 guests, and 22 robots.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    hwlvipone, allianzwisp, kimber65, crocodilegang, Ulakzn
    11,662 Registered Users
    April
    S M T W T F S
    1 2 3 4 5
    6 7 8 9 10 11 12
    13 14 15 16 17 18 19
    20 21 22 23 24 25 26
    27 28 29 30
    Previous Thread
    Next Thread
    Print Thread
    Page 1 of 2 1 2
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Grinity Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    http://www.learnnc.org/lp/pages/5075

    I like the words 'Zone of Proximal Development' but I can image that in practice it could be a disaster for gifted children, with teachers refering to 'charts' of what the levels of learning are. They could use these charts to 'prove' that the child isn't ready for more advanced work, because they haven't mastered skill X or Y. I like the idea that teaching has to start with understanding the learner, and finding out about them, what they know, what they are interested in knowing, basically what they are ready to learn next.

    However, what I like even better is the 'gifted is as gifted does' approach, and give the child a chance to function in a more challenging learning environment and see the results. I think that that is more powerful than any assesment that can be done 'to' a child.

    I guess I'll keep using the term 'Readiness Level' as a fuzzier term than 'Zone of Proximal Development.'

    Smiles,
    Grinity


    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 1,299
    I
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    I
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 1,299
    Thanks for posting that article. I liked this quote:
    Quote
    American psychologist Jerome Bruner (1982) describes the zone of proximal development as �the child�s ability to recognize the value of hinges and props even before he is conscious of their full significance."

    The reason I prefer ZPD to readiness level is because there's an emphasis on "the communication that transpires in a social setting with more knowledgeable or proficient people (parents, teachers, peers, others) assists children in building an understanding of the concept." Readiness level just focuses on the ability level of the student and this can lead to situations where gifted students may just be expected to teach themselves. ZPD includes the relationship with the teacher/mentor/parent/etc.

    The ZPD concept helps me make the most of the time I spend afterschooling. DDs can stretch a bit more with proper scaffolding. I also saw it when I helped at school today with a group of children working on a computer program called Study Island. Many of the concepts were beyond their abilities to tackle independently but I was there to provide scaffolding to help bridge the gap between what they could do independently and what they could do with some assistance.


    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 73
    B
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    B
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 73
    Interesting to see this here. There's a lot out there on Vygotsky and interpretations of his work. Something that has appealed to me about his learning theories is the recognition of a difference between a testable readiness level, and a child's ZPD. Two kids starting at the same place may reach very different levels with coaching/assistance. Sometimes gifted kids need to learn exactly what everyone else in the classroom is learning, but within the social setting provided in that lesson they may advance 3 or 4 levels of achievement instead of just one. One-size-fits-all scaffolding can lead to boredom too quickly for some.


    Benny
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Grinity Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Originally Posted by inky
    Quote
    hinges and props

    Readiness level just focuses on the ability level of the student and this can lead to situations where gifted students may just be expected to teach themselves.

    Thanks Inky!
    BTW, What does he mean by 'hinges and props?'

    Great insight into 'readiness level' - my son is so extraverted in his learning style needs that it wouldn't occur to me, or anyone else, to set him loose on any kind of independent study, so I just 'naturally' assume that folks are as thoughful about other gifties.

    But also, I do think 'readiness level' reflects my basic underlying assumptions that 'maybe you don't owe me teaching, but you at least owe me the opportunity to use my time well, so stop the worksheets and endless repetition and let me read in the corner.' After my own childhood it's hard for me to fully imagine every child having the right to an eduation that actually fits them. I think I'd be able to take ZPD more seriously if I believed that the majority school folks REALLY took the perspecitive that helping my kid grow academically is just as important as helping a child who is obviously struggling. Great Catch!

    Thanks,
    Grinity


    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 1,299
    I
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    I
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 1,299
    Originally Posted by Grinity
    BTW, What does he mean by 'hinges and props?'
    When I read it I pictured a trunk with a hinged lid propped open. Just like the child in the quote, I recognize their value but I'm not conscious of their full significance. That goes for props, hinges and ZPD! wink

    I'm not knocking readiness level as a worthwhile goal. I'd much rather have the teacher give DD a book to read independently than sit through a lesson on something she's already mastered. After seeing what benny describes as a student advancing 3 or 4 lessons with scaffolding instead of just one, I'm pretty enthusiastic about ZPD.

    To do scaffolding right creates incredible time demands on the teacher but hopefully computers can help alleviate some of that. Some of my enthusiasm is tempered by the thought of children spending so much time on computers.

    P.S. Found another interesting tidbit about scaffolding:
    Quote
    Yet another important aspect to scaffolding is the relationship it fosters between teacher and student. In order for students to get excited about acquiring new skills, they have to feel comfortable in knowing that the learning atmosphere the teacher will provide will be interesting, level-appropriate, and enriching.
    from Teaching Strategy: Exploring Scaffolding by Elvani Pennill here
    http://condor.admin.ccny.cuny.edu/~group4/

    Last edited by inky; 10/02/09 10:46 AM. Reason: P.S.
    Joined: Jun 2008
    Posts: 1,897
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Jun 2008
    Posts: 1,897
    This is a great thread!!! Very interesting.

    I hope I can say this without offending anyone:
    You guys are just soooo nerdy!! Love it smile

    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Grinity Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Awwwh, chris1234, you know just what to say to make my day!

    Thanks Inky!

    I've read that various groups of primates are all pretty good at active learning, but there are real differences in the ability to notice what needs to be taught to an individual learner, and provide it. Something to do with really being able to appreciate the mind of another creature really being different. Apparently that is a much higher level function. I sure found that out looking for a chess tutor for my DS! Also, I notice how I've forgotten what I did or didn't tell DH, and then get irritated that he isn't aware of stuff I'm aware of.

    Perhaps the idea is to have 'master teachers' travel around and access the child, and leave it to more regular teacher to do the teaching?

    Just a thought...
    Grinity


    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 1,299
    I
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    I
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 1,299
    Originally Posted by Grinity
    Awwwh, chris1234, you know just what to say to make my day!

    Mine too! It's wonderful to have a place to revel in our nerdiness. grin

    Originally Posted by Grinity
    I've read that various groups of primates are all pretty good at active learning, but there are real differences in the ability to notice what needs to be taught to an individual learner, and provide it. Something to do with really being able to appreciate the mind of another creature really being different. Apparently that is a much higher level function.

    This also ties into the achievement gap, NCLB and getting high quality teachers into underperforming schools. I also thought about the interesting, level-appropriate, and enriching atmosphere in terms of the differences between the aims of NCLB and what's happening in the push for higher scores at some schools. sick

    Tearing myself away to go pack for a weekend trip...

    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Grinity Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    But if we keep using our 'master teachers' in the same old way then how many can we have in any school? These folks are a limited resource.

    I was thinking about Bill Clinton and his Mom today. I would guess she and he wanted him to be able to grow up and GET OUT of his ecomomically limited circumstances. I wonder if I can provide that level of 'purpose' in our economically comfortable home, but then I realize that I crave what we have here on a local basis in a way that is quite palpable in our home. I really want my son to be able to live his adult life in close contact with a nice circle of friends who 'get' him. Not all of those people will be identifiable as gifted, or successful economically or artistically, but there should be some who are.

    Have a great trip!
    Grinity


    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
    Joined: Jan 2008
    Posts: 830
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Jan 2008
    Posts: 830
    I've been thinking about this article, especially how it relates to GS10. Accelerated Reading uses the term "Zone of Proximal Development", ZPD for short. The STAR reading assessment gives the upper limit of the ZPD, and the lower limit appears to be either the child's grade level, or lower.

    In the 4th grade, GS10 made adequate progress in his ZPD, increasing his reading level by 2 years in the 1 school year. I call it adequate but his teacher probably thought it was very good. He had an insane amount of points for his reading goal, and made the goals each quarter.

    By the teacher & the schools measure, GS10 had a successful year; after all, his ZPD increased by 2 grade levels over the period of 1 grade level in time. But I don't think that was an optimum use of that ZPD.

    During the school year, GS10 read to score points. Sure, he read because he loves to read. But everything was selected based on 'is it in his ZPD and would he like the book enough to finish it so he could take the AR test'? (btw, how many of us pick books with that in mind? grrr) At the end of the 4th grade GS10 was fortunate to find a new genre, Greek mythology. He found Rick Riordans books in his teacher's classroom collection, I was so happy with his new interest that I contributed the final two books in that series to her collection, so he could finish the series and as a 'thank you' to the teacher.

    Now let me tell about his long, lazy summer, and how I think it relates to the articles description of the ZPD, platforms, mentors, and hinges.
    With no reading goals to meet, he was free to browse, nibble, taste, or devour any book he wanted. I was(am!) his mentor, building the scaffold(at the time I thought of it as a framework!) for advancing his education. I brought home books by the armload from the library. I expanded his interest in Greek mythology to Roman mythology, and how many of their gods were the same, but with different names. Because we are Christians, I linked that to the Apostle Paul, and his writings to the Athenians about their altar to the unknown God among the altars to the mythological gods. I brought home books on Pythagorus, so he not only knows how to find the hypotenuse of a triangle, he knows about the guy behind the Pythagorean theorem. He read about the Trojan horse, famous battles, the Roman aquaduct, architecture, ethnic foods, art, famous stories behind some common expressions(Nero fiddled while Rome burned, a Trojan horse, etc). He learned Greek & Latin words that form the roots for English words. Some books he devoured, some he browsed, some he nibbled. But all provided toward building a scaffold that will enable him to expand his knowledge further into different areas of interest. He commented several times about how he 'finds something that interests him, then that interest expands into lots of different interests'. Hehe, can you say, 'building a scaffold'?

    Our daughter was his mentor for getting his dog ready to show. He won his showmanship class, where knowledge of the dog's physiology, conformation, and care were key to winning. So, that was a scaffold to build for animal husbandry, or even human physiology.
    I read more at the linked article, and found a link to a related article about scaffolding. I think we successfully did that this summer. Is there a way to measure our success? We can say we achieved the characteristics of scaffolding in his informal education this summer. Did it translate to a measurable achievement at school? GS10 went from a reading level of 8.9 at the end of May to a 12.8 at the end of August. I give credit to using the technique of scaffolding, acting as his mentor, and letting GS do what he does best, read!

    And with that said, I'm going to copy most of it, email his teacher and tell her "no more AR point goals"! Any way, that is how I equate 'scaffolding' & ZPD's with GS10.

    Last edited by OHGrandma; 10/03/09 10:28 AM.
    Page 1 of 2 1 2

    Moderated by  M-Moderator 

    Link Copied to Clipboard
    Recent Posts
    Grade Acceleration K-1-2
    by FrameistElite - 04/30/25 03:01 AM
    School options - need advice!
    by Eagle Mum - 04/23/25 03:20 PM
    What do I ask for to support my kids?
    by Cindi - 04/23/25 12:26 AM
    Dysgraphia Remediation?
    by millersb02 - 04/09/25 06:31 AM
    Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5