Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Explosive Child and/or Nurtured Heart approach

hey everyone
i got the therapists version of the Explosive Child (called Treating the explosive child) and i can say that if i was only doing this for my DS7 (2e, bigtime exectutive control issues) then it might really be THE method for us. I doubt very often that he CAN do the things we expect, at this point.. However, i can't fit my DD5 easily into the Explosive Child paradigm-- that explosive behavior is caused by an underlying cognitive issue. I think i can stretch her into it if i had to, by thinking of her cogniitve power (very HG) as a disability, but it is a stretch, and makes somethign positive into a negative.

However, if i had to merge the two methods (EC and NHA) i think i might be able to do it. I like the other basic notion in EC that the misbehavior is a result of a sort of mis-match between parent and child..and I am hoping i can use methods from the Nurtured Heart Approach as part of bridging the mismatch between myself and my daughter. In other words, I think Explosive CHild is more of a framework that can be used wiht a lot of kids, and Nurtured Heart Approach is more of a specific strategy for a specific type of child (intense, gifted, hooked on "energy"). Though i might be oversimplifying it now as i haven't finished the book.. Grinity, what do you think?

irene

Renie -

I want to ask something. Is the therapist sure she's truly developing ODD? Do you have more than one opinion on the matter?

A diagnosis of ODD is very serious. I would hope that you are very certain it's not something else that appears to be ODD at first blush. I'd want to make absolutely certain that the diagnostician was very familiar with gifted children and their emotional needs first and made sure they ruled out other causes of oppositional behavior. Sometimes the extremely frustrated, emotionally under-developed, highly gifted child can only act out their pain because they can't really understand what they are so angry/frustrated about.

Has your child been evaluated for possible sensory processing disorders? One of the things that tipped me off to my daughter having some sensory issues is the fact that she got carsick quite frequently. This is a problem in the vestibular sense. A lot of behavioral problems can be "caused" by untreated sensory over-sensitivities (particularly in the vestibular sense). Also, reactive hypoglycemia (seen in 5-7% of gifted kids)causes extreme "irrationality" for lack of a better term, in otherwise "good" kids. My daughter would go from Dr. Jekyll to Ms. Hyde when her blood sugar was low. She would change back with a protein-rich snack.

I thought my daughter might have exhibited ODD tendencies. It turns out, her seemingly mild sensory issues (the carsickness I almost shrugged off as a quirk, the fact she didn't care to wash her hands when she was 3 and seemed to outgrow it, and the fact that other "normal" volumes of sounds seemed to bother her, and loud sounds really bothered her for a while but seemed to go away with time) actually played a large part in her behavioral difficulties.

I had my daughter evaluated by a pediatric neuropsychologist to be sure what I was dealing with and what I was not.

I just want to be absolutely sure they covered other possible reasons for oppositional behavior.

Please if you haven't looked into it, please read James T. Webbs Mis-diagnosis and Dual Diagnosis of Gifted Children and Adults.

ODD is the second most common Misdiagnosis of Gifted Children.

You can check out the excerpt on Google Books here

Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnosis of Gifted Children and Adults.
starting on page 66

I wanted to publicly clarify something too as Grinity brought up something to me privately.

I'm not really arguing for or against the Explosive Child.

In fact, I don't use it except for the fact that it helped me understand that there are very good explanations as to why certain children do not respond to traditional behavioral modification techniques.

In fact, I don't use any "technique" to help my child who was difficult/spirited/oppositional (fill in the term of your choice) and was prone to melt down or dig in her heels 10 times a day over the course of 3-4 days. By that 4th day, I can honestly tell you, I wanted to a) run away or b) hang myself, because I couldn't cope. Even though I was grilled endlessly on some of my forensic cases, my 5 year old daughter's baffling behavior brought me to my knees.

Even though I spent 7 years learning about Attachment Parenting, Positive Discipline, and Playful Parenting (other things that worked well for my oldest and youngest daughter, so I know it wasn't that it wasn't my parenting techniques), I was having trouble "keeping up" with these meltdowns and other oppositional behaviors.

My daughter with those meltdowns was the one with severe social anxiety as well and selective mutism (a communication disorder in social settings - though she was highly communicative at home). Turns out they had a lot to do with each other, but the common element was a neuro-developmental delay (not a dysfunction or a disorder, just a delay in development) in her emotional regulation centers though her cognitive development was advanced. Or, in other words, she was developing asynchronously and her emotional intelligence (for lack of a better term) needed to be brought up to the level of her cognitive intelligence.

For her, the subtle sensory processing difficulties made it difficult for any messages I had to "get through". No matter how hard I tried to reassure her, to teach her things, didn't make one difference until I reduced her overall stress about how the world felt to her.

Interestingly enough, all her perfectionist tendencies seemed to mellow out as well. She's got a lot more tolerance for herself than she did 2 years ago.

I honestly don't know about the "Nurtured Heart Approach" with the exception that one blogger I know with an autistic child uses it and seemed to do well with it.

i know that you will be a difference-maker in your family! I think you will find ways to weave the two together! I think that the active recognitions will be great for both kids and that is a great starting place for NHA. Deciding to pick your battles is another great place to start with EC.

I think that teaching the actual missing skills to your son is going to help, and that NHA is one way to do the teaching, but in the long run, you will have to observe your child and see what works for him. You will lay the ropes on the bottom of the tank for the skills you son lacks, and 'shamu' him to speed his learning process.

So glad you feel supported by the therapist - that is excellent!!!!

That's what I think!

Smiles,
Grinity

you know, my DD gets carsick and throws up (almost) every time that we travel by car. She has visual issues (lack of convergence and poor accommodation) so maybe she has as well some vestibular ones. Another thing is that she too changes completely when her sugar level is low - or rather when she has not eaten for a few hours. As a baby she never let more that 1.5 to 2 hours without asking for being breast-fed. Even as an 'older' baby (6+ months) she would snack the whole day (and night, I am thankful that we co-slept).

I have my own meltdowns as well, and in fact if I get too hungry you better run away from me.

All three os us, DD DS and me are very intense, DD is very very sensitive, often reacts quite negatively yo praise (and so do I actually) and right now she is not happy at all at school. DS is mega stubborn (or persistent in a nice way), together with an uncanny ability to climb everywhere plus an insatiable curiosity, especially about things he should not touch.

I need holidays or a majordomo

Sciencemama.

((((Turns out they had a lot to do with each other, but the common element was a neuro-developmental delay (not a dysfunction or a disorder, just a delay in development) in her emotional regulation centers though her cognitive development was advanced. Or, in other words, she was developing asynchronously and her emotional intelligence (for lack of a better term) needed to be brought up to the level of her cognitive intelligence.))))

That sounds very much like my dd6. She did/does not have SPD issues, other than "normal" OEs, and a very good dose of those, BTW. However, she does seem to have trouble regulating her moods/emotions. She is one of the most intense persons I have met.

Can you tell me more about the "social stories"? I think I might have heard about them, but I am not sure. Certainly I haven't yet tried them.

Her therapist has been great at helping her recognize her emotions better and a lot of tricks and coping mechanisms.

I think there is a lot of good advice in The Explosive Child. For instance, all that about not wasting your time drilling things they already "know" but are unable to do. Also, finding common ground and problem solving sound reasonable. We have been able to achieve a lot of "peace" from doing this when she is receptive to the idea (i.e. calm and in a good mood). The tough part, is that for whatever reason, she got it in her head that asking her ANY question is AWFUL. She can't stand direct questions when she is irritable. Therefore, going with "Plan B" (the compromise method) is kind of impossible to achieve....

DD6 uses her amazing intra-personal intelligence to describe how her brain/emotions work. She describes how when she is angry, the thinking chambers in her brain get flooded; for example.

again, thanks to all, quite a sprited debate with lots of great info.
sciencemania, i have to admit i have been using ODD to describe my DD5 but she does not have that diagnosis. She is not six years old and i've read that the diagnoiss is not made until then. I think its a pattern that she has fallen into over the past two years at home and school. At school they found out early on she did "tricks" like reading at 3. She hated that.. and to make her continue they started using "reverse psychology" which they thought was a great idea, but was really teaching her about the powers of manipulating people. We are trying to undo a lot of this, and don't feel she will have a true ODD if we take drastic action now (hence NHA). The pyschologist who we saw at the time of her gifted testing did give her a diagnosis of "adjustment disorder", but he said it was because he felt there was something going on that needed to be addressed, evidenced by underachivement.. her achievement tests were over 3 SDS lower than aptitude.

so i am really hopeful and tomorrow will finish reading EC and then start mapping out a plan that will hopefully be good for all. I just hope and pray the therapist will support me trying to do all of this and not be too rigid about how we go about it.
irene

Hi Renie and other parents --
Just wanted to say thank you for your posts -- really informative for me! I'm new to this forum, and actually just posted a question regarding my son, who is four and also seems to be developing something like ODD (I posted a new topic before I saw this thread).

I especially appreciated Sciencemama's comment:

"I think, with the asynchronous behavior of gifted children, there's a lag in both cognitive flexibility and emotional regulation skills. The more highly gifted the child, the more emotionally intense the child tends to be (I don't have facts, just speaking from my own observations.

It can LOOK like ODD, but it is really not at all. It's simply not being able to identify and cope with INTENSE feelings of frustration."

This insight helps me so much -- my son is having difficulty transitioning back into school, dealing with some authority figures (but not all of them) and having anxiety and anger associated with school in particular. Just reading about similiar situations from other parents is such a relief!

My son hasn't officially been labelled as gifted, but his scores in verbal tests have been very high, and he doesn't fit into the Asperger's profile because of the social skills he does have. But most of his new issues are surrounding social skills with groups of peers. Very confusing for my husband and I, since the kid is extremely extroverted in most social situations.

Anyway, I plan to look into "The Nurtured Heart" book as a resource. Here in Colorado everyone is very big on the Love & Logic approach, which I like in theory, but with a child who is good at haggling over given choices, it doesn't always work!

I've also read this thread with great interest and a sigh of relief that I'm not the only one dealing with these issues. Sciencemama, I'd read your posts about selective mutism and saw some things that applied to our situation. DD's now closer to a "slow to warm up" kid than selective mutism but the meltdowns can be awful. Do you have any additional info on this part (bold added)?


Thanks for this information and the links you provided. I've read The Explosive Child and will look into Nurtured Heart too.

I too am very interested to hear that I am not the only one dealing with the children's issues and feeling like I can't cope. Last year I melted down almost as often as my kids, though I did it differently. I hate emotional confrontation and I had to do a lot with the school my children attended.

This year, I have a TSS for my older son, and a behavioral specialist looking at both. There are a lot of interventions that are neither NHA or EC that are helping my children. The EC helped me try to do what I was already doing better. But, my DS8 is getting sensory time this year at school. The special ed teacher grabs him for a 1/2 hour in the morning and she runs him through walking like an animal (or so he says), sometimes puts him in a body sock, all kinds of interesting wacky sensory things. He is doing great and he loves it.

My DS7 is with a very even-keeled teacher. I have noticed that his "ADHD" happens when he is very wound up. So, having a teacher who catches poor behavior immediately and does not let her own emotional behavior escalate as a result is working wonders. I know neither of the two great situations will last forever, so I will try to enjoy this year before I have to jump into the fray again.:)

I guess my point is that no matter how great the system, there are so many other little factors that really go into this. This community's support with some of these grey-borderline OE issues really help my sanity at times.