Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy what's another way to say you must obey?

You'll note the word obedience and obey both appear in the description of the authoritarian parent and not at all in the authoritative parent.

I think you'll find the downside of obedience argument is one that you will find in many authoritative parenting books including the one I suggested.

I understand it might be nice if we could expect our kids to obey because we said so and think that they will boom turn that off like a switch when obedience is to something else we approve of less, but that really isn't how the brain works. They need the lived experience of learning how to think critically and voice opinions. That isn't to say every minute of every day has to be a never ending series of discussions about taking out the trash. It does mean though we need to put efforts into planning and talking together.

This is one we'll have to agree to disagree on. I don't believe I can teach my son to make good decisions on his own, if I don't explain the logic behind my decisions. That does not mean he can demand an explanation at any time or place. But he learned quickly that I will always explain later if he asks.


I tend to be a bit oversensitive in this area because we had a HORRIBLE K teacher. She deemed her rules to be reasonable, I did not. She would send students to the corner for up to an hour at a time. She would not allow certain students to use the bathroom during the day but would allow others to do so and flaunt it. She often took my son's artwork, erased it and colored it for him because it was "not pretty enough." While I advocated on my end, I also encouraged him to advocate for himself in an appropriate and respectful way.


I have taught middle and high school off and on for ten years. I do believe that there has been a shift, but I don't think it has anything to do with rationalization or negotiation. From my observation, it has to do with severe materialism, parents who buy love instead of spending time with their kids and parents who do not teach their kids about the common good. I've had too many parents start conversations with me that begin with "Don't you know who I am." The entitlement pours off of them and on to their kids.

I also think there's a huge difference between teaching a child to obey and teaching a child to understand why they should obey.

Perhaps I am not around young adults enough, but I have never noticed this sort of thing. I don't think any reasonable person will let someone get away with rule-breaking or shirking work just because they are able to come up with a rationalization about it. A reason is one thing; a rationalization is another. I think it is the authoritarian parent, not the authoritative parent, who is so inflexible as to be unwilling to consider a reasonable argument, made at a reasonable time and in a reasonable way.

We own a store that caters to teens/young adults and I have worked daycare for awhile. I see the entitlement mindset all the time. I even saw it when I was in college 10+ years ago. I have also seen many parents let children get away with murder because the kid has a good reason or because they don't want to "damage their relationship" with the child. Part of it is a materialism - throwing money at the problem mindset, but a lot of it has to do with kids being taught that it is ok to constantly question the adults in their lives. Some things are negotiable, some aren't. That's why there are courts and jails... It is not beyond reason to accustom children to hard and fast rules.

I have been known to tell my boys, "Because I say so" or "Because that's the way it is" and then explain the reasoning shortly afterwards. I don't see anything wrong with those phrases as long as they are reasonable requests that can be simply explained.

It was my experience growing up with authoritarian parents who also happened to be wildly inconsistent that there was very little rhyme or reason behind rules, they were based simply on the whim at the moment. A reasonable rule implies that there is thought and *reasoning* behind the rule. Wouldn't the child would have an easier time complying if they understood that reason? Saying simply, "You need to be quiet because you are disturbing the other shoppers" takes the same amount of time as "You need to be quiet". One makes them mindful of how their behavior is affecting other people, the other makes them mindful of being disobedient. Personally, I'm trying to raise children who can control their behavior outside of explicit rules and I believe the way to accomplish that is to explain *why* rules exist.

I don't think you got my point distinguishing "reason" from "rationalization." To the extent that a child actually has a "good reason," why on earth should that child not get away with it??? Even the law recognizes that a person with justification is not a murderer. I can't imagine why it would be good to punish a child for doing the right thing, even if it is in violation of an established rule.

I think it is very important that children be taught to question adults. I say that as someone who has close relatives and friends who suffered silently through years of child sexual abuse. No, that does not mean that a child should feel entitled to constantly argue and complain. Obviously there is a difference between a reasonable discussion and just plain obnoxiousness. But to me, teaching a child not to question his or her elders is absolutely setting that child up for problems.

Hmm. Based on some of the responses here, I'm thinking that perhaps I didn't articulate myself very well. So, a couple of clarifying statements:

First, at no point did I intend to advocate blind obedience, nor to suggest that children shouldn't be told why they are being told to do something. I am always willing to discuss rules in advance or at a later time and often, when a consequence is needed, my kids are part of determining what that should be.

Second, the word obedience seems to connote mindless, fear based compliance. It is not my intent to suggest that that is a good trait to develop in children (or in adults). That appears to be the way in which my original post was interpreted. I'll have to think about a clearer way to communicate what I mean, although at the moment I can't figure out how to reword it.... I guess the achilles heel of online conversation is that we read each others' words in the absence of any schema about who we are as people.

Third, I did not intend to imply that children should not question. In reality, there is little I value more than honest questioning, and we have always encouraged honest questioning by our children. My comments were directed at what I believed the original post pertained to--the basic rules and expectations that have been set and explained, but are frequently questioned and challenged "in the moment" and subjected to endless attempts at negotiation or end runs.

I think part of the problem I'm having here, is that I am trying to share my thinking without sharing illustrative examples. Unfortunately, the examples I would share don't belong to me, so I'm left with words that are clearly...not clear .

This is probably a discussion I just need to bow out of gracefully. Really, I believe that we all just have to do what we feel is best for our kids in the both the short term and the long term. No doubt we will all make mistakes along the way, but if we parent with an eye not only to benefitting our children, but also to growing the quality of our community, then perhaps we will all at least do well enough.

Apologies to anyone I offended.

I agree with Taminy. This thread has been a little bit "hi-jacked". I would assume that most of us do reason with our children.

I am certain that most of us do reason with our children.

The thing is that I have interacted with many families where that is ALL there is. Every single thing becomes a debate. My main point is that there is a need to find a balance between never question and always question. Yes, saying that a child needs to be quiet because they are disturbing the shoppers teaches them the reasoning, but saying it each and every time the are loud in public and not having consequences for not listening derails the entire point of explaining. (And yes, I have seen examples of this... sigh...)

If you are pulled over for speeding, telling the cop that you were going the speed of traffic or have a family emergency at home doesn't change the fact you will get a ticket. I have seen parents teaching their children through their parenting choices that debate and stubborness on the part of the child results in the child ALWAYS getting their way. That's simply not how the real world works and I have seen kids get a very rude awakening because of this.

I would be interested in knowing how people achieve this balance. I know from raising my two that it isn't easy. We talk a lot about personal responsibility and why there are rules, as well as when obeying without debate is appropriate and when debate is acceptable.

I was just attempting to show an example. I probably wasn't clear enough. I should have put "good reason" in quotes. For example: Girl throws away dinner untouched. She then says, "Ok, my dinner is gone I get dessert now" (and yes this has happened and to my knowledge she did end up with dessert).

Saying I shouldn't get in trouble because I didn't do it and this is what happened is a totally different type of reason and if it is true, is an appropriate debate.