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A recitation of milestones would be annoying. But I think that growing and developing is the job of kids. It's what they do. My job is to help them do that. Not talking about what they do is like not being able to talk about our work. That seems forced to me, especially in groups that come together because of parenting issues. Parenting is the one thing--sometimes the only thing!--we have in common. It's the natural topic of conversation.

I agree completely, passthepotatoes, that the value of a person does not lie in what they can do when. But I don't think that's necessarily what kids are being reduced to when a parent wants to say nice things about a child or even wants to make a list of milestones for the grandparents and for the child herself as she grows up. Baby books are full of that stuff! Some of that is just about recording the child's history.

I guess for me it's about love. It's certainly not about putting other kids down or making other parents feel bad. It's about appreciating all kids and making everyone feel good--the kids about themselves and the parents about the job. Actually, I've found that it's often with parents of developmentally disabled kids that BOTH sets of parents feel most free to share the good stuff. Anyone who has kids outside the norm are more likely to identify with the need to celebrate and not being able to in public. If it were about competitiveness, I don't think that would work. I think people with kids at the left side of the Bell Curve too often get pity when they want celebration, and I think the people with kids on the right side get competition (or disbelief) when they want celebration.

I guess my point is that I hear what you're saying, but I don't think a list of milestones for general public consumption is what people here mean by "bragging." It's the "happy moment" that you alluded to yourself. I don't think that's a bad thing, I don't think it's about defining a child by how fast they do things, and I don't think it's competitive. I think it's about taking pleasure in our kids, as all parents should do, and as most parents get to do in public without fear of social retribution.

Maybe that's the difference... I think that if a kid doesn't have disabilities most of these milestones that are generating comment aren't work - not their work and certainly not my work. They are simply a part of the process of developing. To gas on about the kid putting two words together seems a lot like gassing on about the kid's toes growing. It isn't something to claim credit for. It simply is. In the scheme of many parenting related topics we could be discussing it seems one of the least interesting to me.

It does say something I think if people hear not talking about milestones as the equivalent of not talking about or enjoying children.


Maybe that's it. I'm not a fan of the dates and names version of teaching history either. The most important themes can be missed in the details. For most of us the age we sit or say a two word sentence has little or nothing to do with what our lives actually become. And the early emphasis on these types of milestones may shape who we are in ways that aren't positive. The attention to smarts, the early expectations of precociousness once established by parents can be hard to put the breaks on later.


But, the reality is that it often makes parents of young children feel terrible and insecure. It makes people worry about their kids and the ways they don't fit. Any two minutes on any parenting board online reveals the ways in which these comparisons feed insecurity.


Do you have a developmentally disabled child? I would keep in mind that many disabled kids aren't not accurately diagnosed during the baby, toddler or preschool years so many parents during that time don't have a neat label that makes everyone comfortable with sharing milestones that are far out of the norm. All people may have is a vague uncomfortable feeling that something isn't quite right and when they share stuff people are not quite sure how to react.


Well put. I agree. That's why I say instead of seeing this as a process of love we take the more radical step of rethinking if this is how we want to define what it means to enjoy or know children. What ways can we find to enjoy children that are totally separate from defining them, and us by extension, by their accomplishments or talents?

Your example is cracking me up because I know that I have brought up the rapid rate at which my DD3 goes through shoe sizes on several occasions--but I have never mentioned her putting two words together (nor do I even have a clue when that happened). Gosh, I must be a horribly boring conversationalist.

I wonder what topics related to parenting you would advise introducing at the playground? I'm up for more interesting conversation, but sadly I often cannot think of any when I am with a group of near-strangers.

Hi!

I made the original "bragging about your kid" comment. Wow what a way to start your first post. I think perhaps the way I used the term "bragging" was taken out of context. Perhaps I should have just said "talking about your kid." I rarely ever even bring up the subject of DD's development with friends, especially ones with children because I know it will be perceived as "bragging." However, people ask "so what is she doing now." I guess it is just a conversation starter. At 1 she could recite the alphabet. I was not going to lie. So I answered honestly. She knows the alphabet she is sight reading a little. Not bragging, just being honest. The next time I saw the person with a sarcastic tone she says so is she done with War and Peace yet? So an honest answer to a question asked of me about my child was taken as bragging because of what my child was doing. I guess I have just had some bad experiences. Hopefully those of others have been better.

I also think that DD deserves to hear that I am proud of her abilities and achievements, not that I ignore them or pretend that they do not exist. Or worse, hide them to fit in with others. She is smart and even at 4 she recognizes that how she learns is somewhat different than her peers. I think that was evident when she tried having a conversation with a friend's daughter about why dinosaurs went extinct and was met with a blank stare. My biggest fear is that as a teenager DD will decide that it is better to mask her talents to fit in than it is to be a girl that loves and is very good at math and science. I want DD to know that as a parent I am proud of her in every way and that being smart is a good thing, not something to be ashamed of or hide from.

I do not go around reciting my DDs IQ score because yes I believe that would be an invasion of her privacy and a pointless exercise. I do not have a blog (although I have no problem with it). In fact, I resisted the invitation to have a news article written about DD as one of the youngest members of MENSA in our area because I felt that would be an invasion of her privacy and I saw no benefit to doing so. The sole reason we signed her up for MENSA was so we could hopefully meet some other families with gifted kids. Our hope was to find some play peers for DD as she had encountered some difficulty in connecting with same age peers.

And, for the record, the only thing that I think is lacking in my own life right now is more time. I am happily married, work full time at a job I love, am a mother to two kids, have a network of friends, and some hobbies like photography that regrettably I do not have the time to properly indulge at the moment.

When I had my child, I was new to the community. I joined the local early childhood learning classes to meet people and to learn about raising a child. I did not babysit much and knew very little about what to expect with babies. I'm no psychologist, but I think it is perfectly natural for people to talk about what's going on with their children so they can know if that's what is supposed to happen. And if something was out of the norm, I could seek medical advice if needed. I enjoyed hearing about the other children, since I had known them since they were 4 months old and it was fun for me to see them grow up. I did find out that it made some of the mothers feel bad when my DS was doing things at 6 months or whenever that their kids weren't doing yet, so I ended up clamming up. And I felt like I missed out on sharing and on being a true part of a community. I was so happy when I found this site. I felt that I really had found my people, and I could talk freely about whatever DS was doing, and I wouldn't be judged or disbelieved; I would be supported.

Now that DS is 5, I know little about what to expect in kindergarten around here (things have changed in the 30+ years since I went to a different type of school), so when I see other parents with school-age kids, I tend to ask questions about what goes on during the school year. P-the-P probably wouldn't find any of these conversations interesting, but that's fine - everyone has different personalities. Since DS is my one and only, every parenting experience is new to me, and I like to learn as much as I can about it.

Re: bragging. I see b0th sides of the discussion. I like talking about my kids, but I know I have to be very careful about what to talk about and how to talk about it. If we are not careful, innocent conversation can be regarded as borderline bragging. Plus I have heard parents brag abuot their kids and it is indeed uncomfortable for the listeners. But on the other hand, every parent has the right to feel proud for their kids and it's weird if parents can celebrate their kids' achievement only if it is not extraordinary. In the end I think each one of us will figure out the right balance and the right group of people to talk about such things. I generally don't talk about my kids being amazing even to close friends, but I would tell them what my kids are doing these days if the occasion is right: what they are reading, whether DS got medals/trophies in recent competitions, trouble with teachers, messy rooms... In a lot of situations it is possible to talk about issues without being too specific. For example I have talked about DS9's trouble in the classroom with many parents without having to tell anyone how advanced DS is. Just saying that the problems stem from him being advanced and bored seems to be sufficient for most parents to understand our issues. This way I get to hear other families' experience without seeming to brag.

Re: milestones. I think there are pros and cons to pay too much attention to them. In some cases, picking up signs early will help parents to prepare for their kids' special needs (on either side of the spectrum). On the other hand, if you don't know, you don't worry. We never paid much attention to milestones with DS because he was clearly very smart and we didn't suspect that he was slow in anything. We just went along with what he demanded: if he wanted to do math we found math material; if he wanted to read history we checked out history books for himl; if he wanted to discuss solar system we discussed with him... Granted, it was a huge surprise to us when he entered K and we realized how advanced he was. But before K, we were free of stress.

We paid more attention to milestones with DD, because she was much slower on lots of things. But through this we also learned that the milestones really are only a guideline, not golden rules. DD4 staretd talking much later than DS9, but now she is much more articulate than DS when he was 4, and her imagination when she makes up stories is simply amazing. DD started crawling and walking very late compared with kids of the same age, but she started running as soon as she started walking and is now an amazingly athletic kid (she outruns all the 5yo girls in her preschool and in sports lessons she is generally better than the 5yos there as well). She started out late, but now that we watch her, we think she is just as talented/gifted as her older brother.

I thought the same thing, no5no5.

I guess I don't understand the "gas on and on" thing, passthepotatoes. It seems like you've had some really bad experiences. Yes? It seems you're assuming an utter lack of sensitivity, when the point is that most people want to come here to talk about their kids *precisely because* they are sensitive to how their kids' accelerated intellectual development will affect others.

Could we agree that boorish behavior is NOT what we're talking about? I mean, "gassing on and on" would be rude regardless of the topic! I wouldn't want to gas on and on about the book I'm writing, but I might mention it in conversation because it's what I do all day, just like I might want to talk about my kids a little. No gas! About anything!

Trust me when I say that practically no one I see at the playground is going to have more than 3 words to say to me about Vikings (the topic of my novel) or the latest Science Channel show (since they watch American Idol and I don't). So what do we discuss? The weather gets old as a topic...

Part of having different kids is often being different, too. Kids are one thing--often the only thing!--I share with the people around me. It's hard that it's not open for discussion. but it isn't in most places. Here, it is and that's really nice!


I agree completely that milestones aren't the point, and someone who can only talk about that is a boor and a bore. I think we agree more than you are seeing.

But again, I think you're missing a very important point here.

It's not about "claiming credit" for anything. I really think you're misunderstanding what we mean by bragging. Think "saying nice things about and being proud of the people they are" instead of "gassing on and on." Think "being excited about how they overcome obstacles" or "loving that they don't give up, even when it's hard." Do you have a problem with that kind of pride?

The problem--the reason other people might THINK we're competing when we're not!--is that the things the kids have to work hard at are often so advanced that most other people don't understand that these things ARE hard for the kids, that they ARE overcoming obstacles.

I mean, *you're* even assuming everything is easy for them! Just because they're gifted doesn't mean that everything is easy!

When our kids show strength of character--GT or no--I feel strongly that we have a right as parents to feel proud of our kids and to want to say, "Hey, isn't this great! Yay!" But if what they work hard at is spelling a challenging word at 3yo or mastering a difficult algebra problem at 8yo, people don't get that it's the hard work, not the spelling or the algebra that is important. They hear "algebra" and stop.

Look at the brag thread. See the things that people think are brag-worthy that they can't share IRL. It's almost never "he hit this milestone early." Nearly all are things there are things that are clever or funny or quirky or show real strength of character. Yet these are things we know we cannot share with most other parents.


I don't have a diagnosis for a developmentally disabled child--possibly one with LDs or 2E issues, though all I have right now is the vague uncomfortable feeling that something isn't quite right. He's not hitting most milestones early, though he's way ahead on a few. 2E seems likely. (And BTW, I love to brag/say nice things about him, too, regardless of milestones! He's such a wonderful kid!)

My friends with developmentally disabled kids have elementary-aged kids or older, not babies or toddlers. They all have diagnoses. One very good friend has a 25yo son who just moved into a group home to live without mom and dad for the first time. We've talked a lot about how proud they are of him, and they don't/can't do that with most people. Pity again.

But most of the developmentally disabled kids I know are in the 5-10yo range, and several parents have commented to me about how nice it is that they get to speak freely with me about schools, special needs, individualized education, and even milestones their kids have hit and how pleased they are about their progress, and we've chatted about how much more we have in common than we have with the parents of kids in the middle of the Bell Curve. I am careful not to be insensitive, but I am able to say, "He doesn't fit the norm, and that's a challenge we face," and they understand.

I hope that does a better job of clarifying.

One other note:

One thing I see a lot is parents (of both GT and ND kids) who--to avoid bragging--only say bad things about their kids. They gripe all the time. It gets old, and I don't think it's healthy for kids to hear that. It seems to be in vogue to be hyper-critical.

For every one bad thing a child hears, they need something like 9 good things to get their self-esteem back to baseline. Such is the power of negativity. So I want my kids to hear me saying nice things! About who they are as human beings and the good choices they make in life, the things they can control.

I agree the criticism and negativity are huge problems. Sometimes my kid is such a PITA is traded by parents as a kind of currency and it is hurtful. Do you at all see that pride and shame are just flip sides of the same coin?

If you said it once I'd think you were trying to make conversation and I might try to make conversation back by soliciting your opinions about shoe shopping since you are probably more expert. If you said it more than once I'd wonder if you've considered there may be somebody in the room who is worried about their child growing slowly and the fact that the last three times they've bought the same size shoes.


This stuff is easy for me so I'm probably being insensitive that part of why milestones dominate conversation is people can't think of other things to talk about. If you are genuinely interested in other people it seems like conversational topics would emerge fairly easily... other parks with good playgrounds, shared interest in dinosaurs, hobbies like knitting, life while half asleep, etc.